non-Baha'is "utterly destroyed"?

[Seeker_of_truth]

This refers to the quote from Abdul-Baha:

Whatsoever people is graciously favoured therewith by God, its name shall surely be magnified and extolled by the 28 Concourse from on high, by the company of angels, and the denizens of the Abha Kingdom. And whatsoever people turneth its heart away from this Divine Love -- the revelation of the Merciful -- shall err grievously, shall fall into despair, and be utterly destroyed. That people shall be denied all refuge, shall become even as the vilest creatures of the earth, victims of degradation and shame.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 27)

If i understand this correctly, when i tell my friends about Baha'u'llah and they reject Him that means they are denied all refuge, become vile, and shameful?
Is this correct?

[arthra]

"If i understand this correctly, when i tell my friends about Baha'u'llah and they reject Him that means they are denied all refuge, become vile, and shameful?
Is this correct?"

......

My response is i don't think so.... Recall that Abdul-Baha Himself was very forebearing and even when rejected and maligned did not give up... So no, the idea is not to just walk away after some one rejects the Faith saying they are "shameful" or "vile"... The hope and prayers continue!

Right after the passage you quoted are the following sentences:

"O ye beloved of the Lord! Strive to become the manifestations of the love of God, the lamps of divine guidance shining amongst the kindreds of the earth with the light of love and concord.
All hail to the revealers of this glorious light!"

So we should be careful I think to interpret the Writings as we could reeach conclusions that are unwarranted sometimes.

- Art

[Seeker_of_truth]

So who is Abdul-Baha calling shameful and vile?

[Popeyesays]

How about we take the WHOLE Tablet since it is one complete thought on one topic and trying to take ultimate guidance from a piece of the Tablet leaves one with more questions than answers:

"12. Know thou of a certainty that Love is the secret of God's holy Dispensation, the manifestation of the All-Merciful, the fountain of spiritual outpourings. Love is heaven's kindly light, the Holy Spirit's eternal breath that vivifieth the human soul. Love is the cause of God's revelation unto man, the vital bond inherent, in accordance with the divine creation, in the realities of things. Love is the one means that ensureth true felicity both in this world and the next. Love is the light that guideth in darkness, the living link that uniteth God with man, that assureth the progress of every illumined soul. Love is the most great law that ruleth this mighty and heavenly cycle, the unique power that bindeth together the divers elements of this material world, the supreme magnetic force that directeth the movements of the spheres in the celestial realms. Love revealeth with unfailing and limitless power the mysteries latent in the universe. Love is the spirit of life unto the adorned body of mankind, the establisher of true civilization in this mortal world, and the shedder of imperishable glory upon every high-aiming race and nation.
Whatsoever people is graciously favoured therewith by God, its name shall surely be magnified and extolled by the 28 Concourse from on high, by the company of angels, and the denizens of the Abha Kingdom. And whatsoever people turneth its heart away from this Divine Love -- the revelation of the Merciful -- shall err grievously, shall fall into despair, and be utterly destroyed. That people shall be denied all refuge, shall become even as the vilest creatures of the earth, victims of degradation and shame.
O ye beloved of the Lord! Strive to become the manifestations of the love of God, the lamps of divine guidance shining amongst the kindreds of the earth with the light of love and concord.
All hail to the revealers of this glorious light!
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 27)

Taken in cntext it means those that turn awy from LOVE become degraded and vile. That has nothing to do with the Baha`i teachings as the object to turn away from, but rather the notion that LOVE is the essence of Godly behavior.

Context, Grasshopper, Context above all other things.

Regards,
Scott

[IMSassafras]

Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth

If i understand this correctly, when i tell my friends about Baha'u'llah and they reject Him that means they are denied all refuge, become vile, and shameful?
Is this correct?

Well, I think you will shock a person by saying in one quick breathe that the return of Christ has come and if you don't accept him right now you are "utterly destroyed", so I think there is some time allowed to ponder. But to say exactly how much time is the right amount of time, that is not for me to say.

Having said that, I have a strong example of what happens when a person is faced with the acceptance or rejection of Baha'u'llah - either His Faith or Principles. My example is of three people - George H. W. Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush Jr.

Bush Sr. was an evil man throughout his life and when he first became President. But in 1990, only two years into his first term, he gave a powerful speech to the Congress called, "Toward a New World Order". This speech was designed from his reading of "The Promised of World Peace" which is a very important document of the Baha'i Faith. At this point in Bush Sr.'s Presidential career, he accepted the principles of the Baha'i Faith and in the end proved himself not corrupt enough for a second term in office.

When Bill Clinton was in office, I feel he accepted the same principles and the visual announcement of this showed in his ability to create a surplus of such magnitude that tax payers received more money back in tax refunds one year than what we paid out in taxes.

George Bush Jr., on the other hand, has, IMO, rejected the principles of Baha'u'llah. He use to be a decent speaker, now he screws up every speech which isn't prepared for him, as long as he doesn't go on a tangent. He has made terrible decisions about the war. He has created the highest deficit in national history. He has lied to the peoples of the world about countless of issues. Bush Jr. is more evil than his father ever was, and he was truly an evil man.

In the face of tragedy, Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton, two members of the opposing team, have united in fund-raising efforts for Tsunami Victims and Katrina Victims. What a dynamic duo!! They are doing things to help the world. No one can same the same for George Bush Jr. Actually, he is the total opposite.

In order to make this comparison visually obvious, we needed time to let these people develop into either good or evil individuals. Can George Bush Jr. change? Sure!! He could change sometime in the next two years while in office. He could change after he gets out of office. Or he could never change. It is called Free Will.

That is exactly what your friends have, Seeker of Truth, free will. They can reject the Baha'i Faith now and accept it later. They have the free will to make whatever decision they make.

And with that, I am willingly going to bed....

warmly,
Sass

[Seeker_of_truth]

Thank you for the replies
I shall sleep well tonight.

[9Harmony]

"Except to speak well of them, make thou no mention of the earth's kings, and the worldly governments thereof."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 92)

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

[quote=Seeker_of_If i understand this correctly, when i tell my friends about Baha'u'llah and they reject Him that means they are denied all refuge, become vile, and shameful?
Is this correct?[/quote]

Clearly not, as several other folks here have pointed out.

'Abdu'l-Baha was referring to someone who rejects God and goodness generally, and opposes all the great religions which spread His Light!

Neither Baha'is nor anyone else has a monopoly on truth and goodness....

Peace,

Bruce

[Mick]

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

"Except to speak well of them, make thou no mention of the earth's kings, and the worldly governments thereof."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 92)

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't be aware of the unfolding politics of our time? Were you suggesting that Sassafras shouldn't have used the example she did?

We are told to not become involved in party politics. Being aware of the development of the promised New World Order, as promised by Baha'u'llah, could never be construed as political involvement. This world is changing daily because of the principles that Baha'u'llah gave us. We would have to put our head in the sands to not notice it.

The first three individuals that answered Seeker of Truths question gave diverse but equally correct responses. Art warned us that we must be careful when we try to interpret the Writings. Popeye was very analytical and suggested that we look at the whole context that a message is given, not just a portion of it. Sassafras gave us a living example how these principles can affect the world. We know that George Bush SR. was presented with A Promise of World Peace and that he read it. We can look at the history of his quoting from it and his changes in his caring for humanity. The supposition that Sassafras made concerning Bill Clinton is not too far reaching in my thinking, considering the common efforts Mr. Bush and Mr. Clinton are now endeavoring concerning the peoples of the world. I thought she gave us a view of how important these principles are to the world and how they can change the heart of individual men/women. If nothing else, it underlines how important it is for each of us to teach these Principles of Hope to everybody we meet.

Mick

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Mick

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't be aware of the unfolding politics of our time? Were you suggesting that Sassafras shouldn't have used the example she did?

We are told to not become involved in party politics. Being aware of the development of the promised New World Order, as promised by Baha'u'llah, could never be construed as political involvement. This world is changing daily because of the principles that Baha'u'llah gave us. We would have to put our head in the sands to not notice it.

The first three individuals that answered Seeker of Truths question gave diverse but equally correct responses. Art warned us that we must be careful when we try to interpret the Writings. Popeye was very analytical and suggested that we look at the whole context that a message is given, not just a portion of it. Sassafras gave us a living example how these principles can affect the world. We know that George Bush SR. was presented with A Promise of World Peace and that he read it. We can look at the history of his quoting from it and his changes in his caring for humanity. The supposition that Sassafras made concerning Bill Clinton is not too far reaching in my thinking, considering the common efforts Mr. Bush and Mr. Clinton are now endeavoring concerning the peoples of the world. I thought she gave us a view of how important these principles are to the world and how they can change the heart of individual men/women. If nothing else, it underlines how important it is for each of us to teach these Principles of Hope to everybody we meet.

Mick

I think we should be aware of it, but I think we should comment little, especially when discussing current leaders. There is too much partisanship involved. Partisanship is the antithesis of Baha`i society.

Regards,
Scott

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I think we should be aware of it, but I think we should comment little, especially when discussing current leaders. There is too much partisanship involved. Partisanship is the antithesis of Baha`i society.

Regards,
Scott

That's an interesting view, Scott, and I am pleased you shared it with me.

On the other hand, it is pretty difficult to teach the Baha'i Faith without current events coming up as a subject. I agree, to get involved with a partisan discussion, which I will not be drawn into, is harmful to any teaching efforts. But an analysis of current events from a Baha'i perspective, I have found, is an effective tool while discussing and applying the importance of the principles of the Baha'i Faith.

I think that Baha'is are too quick to tell other Baha'is what they should or should not do. I find it interesting that the information concerning George Bush reading the Promise of World Peace was shared with Western Michigan Baha'is by a representative of the NSA. We were contacted and asked to have a gathering that this iindividual could speak to. It was held in Grand Rapids, sometime arond 1991 or 1992. This individual shared information from the NSA and some anecdotes concerning teaching efforts of the Friends. They felt it was important that we were aware of the current stature of President Bush and his being influenced by the Promise of World Peace. There was no admonition or warning that we should not be aware or concerned with current affairs, but, actually, the direct opposite.

If you care to hear the actual story concerning a the Baha'i representative of the United Nations, Barb Bush, George Bush, and The Promise of World Peace, I can post it. But the point is, that, yes it is important to not become involved, even in discussion, of party politics. But to suggest that we, Baha'is should not be concerned with world developments or to use them while discussing the principles is a little too much, in my opinion. After all, the children of todays children will be studying what transpired now in their history classes. We on the other hand are living the history.

Mick

[wil]

Am I reading some implication that GHWB or WJC were bahai? I'd love to see the quotes which indicate their actions were guided by a bahai document or thought....

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Mick

That's an interesting view, Scott, and I am pleased you shared it with me.

On the other hand, it is pretty difficult to teach the Baha'i Faith without current events coming up as a subject. I agree, to get involved with a partisan discussion, which I will not be drawn into, is harmful to any teaching efforts. But an analysis of current events from a Baha'i perspective, I have found, is an effective tool while discussing and applying the importance of the principles of the Baha'i Faith.

I think that Baha'is are too quick to tell other Baha'is what they should or should not do. I find it interesting that the information concerning George Bush reading the Promise of World Peace was shared with Western Michigan Baha'is by a representative of the NSA. We were contacted and asked to have a gathering that this iindividual could speak to. It was held in Grand Rapids, sometime arond 1991 or 1992. This individual shared information from the NSA and some anecdotes concerning teaching efforts of the Friends. They felt it was important that we were aware of the current stature of President Bush and his being influenced by the Promise of World Peace. There was no admonition or warning that we should not be aware or concerned with current affairs, but, actually, the direct opposite.

If you care to hear the actual story concerning a the Baha'i representative of the United Nations, Barb Bush, George Bush, and The Promise of World Peace, I can post it. But the point is, that, yes it is important to not become involved, even in discussion, of party politics. But to suggest that we, Baha'is should not be concerned with world developments or to use them while discussing the principles is a little too much, in my opinion. After all, the children of todays children will be studying what transpired now in their history classes. We on the other hand are living the history.

Mick

I'd love to see it personally, please post it. I'm glad you understand the dichotomy I see in referring to current leaders.

Historically there is no doubt that Woodrow Wilson was strongly influenced by the Baha`i principles as he drew up proposals for the League of Nations. The source of that influence was his daughter who was Baha`i.

In that day and time, individuals became Baha`i by submitting a letter to Abdu'l Baha in which they told him why they desired to be Baha`i. A great number of his personal correspondence was in reply to these petitions.

And Wil, it is not possible at this time for one involved in party politics to become Baha`i by declaration. There have been Congresspersons who have been very sympathetic to the Baha`i cause and refrained from declaring because they felt their influence in the realms of politics could be of more use to the cause than their personal declaration.

The reason this is so is that Shoghi Effendi directs us that Baha`i's cannot maintain membership in political parties because those parties are by their very nature divisive rather than unifying. In the United States political system being an "Independent" is most usually a death-knell to one's political career.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

Am I reading some implication that GHWB or WJC were bahai? I'd love to see the quotes which indicate their actions were guided by a bahai document or thought....

Not really reading through the posts too well but seen your post. but personally I think concepts in the freemasons are also found in Baha'i. dont tell bahai awareness

[Mick]

First, let me say to Wil. No. I didn't even hint at either one ever becoming a member of the Baha'i Faith nor do I have any knowledge that they even considered such a thing. I am saying, as Popeye said, that they could well have been influenced by the writings.

Now the story as it was told to the Baha'is of West Michigan in a meeting held in Grand Rapids, Mi in the summer of, I think, 1990. The gentleman was of Persian descent and had a marked accent. I only mention this because it was a hot day, with no airconditioning and so the doors and windows of this hall were open. I have a hearing problem, particularly in a room full of people, and so I moved near the front, standing on the side so I could hear/understand the speaker better.

He told us that he and others were sent out that summer by the NSA to talk to Baha'is all over the US. He gave us greetings from the NSA and then proceeded to tell us stories of teaching efforts and events across the nation. I had understood that he was there to "boost" our morale and to motivate our efforts in teaching this Great Cause.

One of the stories was told like this. I forget the name of representative of the Baha'i Faith to the United Nations at that time, but she was friend of Barbara Bush, as the story was told. They were having tea one day when the Baha'i lady asked Barbara if George had read the document The Promise of World Peace. Barbara told her no he hadn't as far as she knew, but she had and thought it was a powerful work. The Baha'i lady told Mrs. Bush that it was important that George read it. The speaker said she said this quite convincingly. A few weeks later, they again were having tea and Mrs. Bush told the Baha'i lady that George had read the document and they had discussed it. Think about it. This was verification of an American President reading and discussing a world changing document that was being disseminated around the world to all the world leaders.

Well, it was shortly after that we started seeing direct quotes from The Promise of World Peace in his speeches . In fact, I had read an article in the Muskegon Chronicle that was AP wire. It questioned where George Bush was getting his material. His speech writers denied that they were writing what he was saying. In fact, they said they would write a speech, he would approve it and then when he gave the speech, he would wander way off course. Of course, this is when the quotes started filtering in.

I sent a letter to the White House Speech Writers with a copy of the newspaper article. I included some Baha'i brochures, a copy of The Promise of World Peace and an explanation of where President Bush was getting his information. I also suggested that if they wanted more information themselves, they could contact the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States or the could simply look in their phone book for a local contact number for the Baha'is. A couple of months later, I received a form letter thanking me for writing. The letter didn't have anything to do with the content of my letter, so I would say it was just one of many they send out.

This is how we are sure that George HW Bush read The Promise of World Peace. Watching him explain his New World Order as he envisioned it, and the continuous quotes from the writings used to give me goose bumps. In fact, if you look back at history, GHW Bush was supposed to be a shoe-in for reelection. He had just finished a very successful war and his popularity was high and yet, he lost the election. Interestingly, in the summer of the campaign year in the month of July, he was in so much trouble, Jim Baker, then the Secretary of State, resigned and took over his campaign. When he was questioned about the pose GHW Bush was taking, he said he had no idea where President Bush was getting his information. At the time, I watched an individual that I thought was evil in the way he presented himself become caring and interested. I believe that is why he lost the election. He was just too nice.

Today, he is a great humanitarian. The work that He and Bill Clinton are doing is commendable and welcomed. This is only one of many times I saw the writings being affective in the world order we are living in today.

Mick