non-Baha'is "utterly destroyed"?

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Not really reading through the posts too well but seen your post. but personally I think concepts in the freemasons are also found in Baha'i. dont tell bahai awareness

Bahai Awareness has returned. Did you guys know he claims that Russia was a communist nation back in 1844? Just one example of twisting facts to match an agenda.

"The Emperor of Russia (incidentally a communist country whose residents do not believe in God, leave alone the representatives of God) sent a message to the Consul at Tabriz asking him to fully investigate and report the circumstances of the death of the Bab. The Russian Consul called Sayyed Mohammed Hussain, who was released at Tabriz and asked about the signs and the circumstances of the Bab.
(Ref: Taarikhe' Jadid, page 402)

I highlighted and italicized the editorial claim. It's not part of the document cited, by the way--it's an editorial comment.

Regards,
Scott

[awhisperatdawn]

hi Seeker; A people does not mean an individual. It means a nation. Of course a nation without wisdom will have great difficulties. It would be better if at least a representative number of the nation recognize the Promised One. They will be the calalyst of change for that people.

-Peter

[arthra]

Thanks for your post "awhisperatdawn"! and welcome to the Forum!

- Art

[awhisperatdawn]

thank you Art; It will take me a while to learn how to use the site. I am used to msn groups. This reply page looks funny in Opera browser. Everything
I type is 3 words wide. Weird!

-Peter

[Promethium]

" And whatsoever people turneth its heart away from this Divine Love - the revelation of the Merciful -- shall err grievously, shall fall into despair, and be utterly destroyed. That people shall be denied all refuge, shall become even as the vilest creatures of the earth, victims of degradation and shame."
-Abdul-Baha

Seeker_of_Truth, I think perhaps you're concentrating too much on just the name and title Bahai. Divine Love is availabe by following the teachings of God. If someone reads the Bible and then does kindness he is still turning towards God's Divine Love. If an atheist wife beater gets help, gives up his violence, and starts showing love and kindness, he is doing something in harmony with the teachings of God. Therefore being sheltered by Gods Love. Baha'u'llah teaches that one must recognize his Manifestation and follow His teachings to gain the full benefit of Gods mercy in this day. If I declare myself a Bahai and then start doing terrible deeds I will be denying myself of Gods love. But my exposure to Baha'u'llah and His teachings may be enough to turn my heart to His teachings and to start showing kindness. If I follow another Messenger it is ok because I am still following an expression of God's mercy, however Baha'u'llah was sent to rejuvenate mans connection to God and to more fully express Gods teachings due to humanities' new needs and maturity, as well as to enlighten man into realizing that there really is only One common Faith.(I cant forget unify mankind) Gods mercy rains down on all, its how we choose to accept or deny it in this world that will determine whether we soar or sink. Our acceptance and/or denial of God's love and mercy determines the state of our soul. It may fade into a sinful state of non-being/"sub-human" or rise to the heights of full splendor and virtue.

"Man must be a lover of the light no matter from what day-spring it may appear. He must be a lover of the rose no matter in what soil it may be growing."
(Abdu'l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 15)

" SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."
-Baha'u'llah, Hidden Words #5

[Seeker_of_truth]

Originally Posted by Promethium

" And whatsoever people turneth its heart away from this Divine Love - the revelation of the Merciful -- shall err grievously, shall fall into despair, and be utterly destroyed. That people shall be denied all refuge, shall become even as the vilest creatures of the earth, victims of degradation and shame."
-Abdul-Baha

Seeker_of_Truth, I think perhaps you're concentrating too much on just the name and title Bahai. Divine Love is availabe by following the teachings of God. If someone reads the Bible and then does kindness he is still turning towards God's Divine Love. If an atheist wife beater gets help, gives up his violence, and starts showing love and kindness, he is doing something in harmony with the teachings of God. Therefore being sheltered by Gods Love. Baha'u'llah teaches that one must recognize his Manifestation and follow His teachings to gain the full benefit of Gods mercy in this day. If I declare myself a Bahai and then start doing terrible deeds I will be denying myself of Gods love. But my exposure to Baha'u'llah and His teachings may be enough to turn my heart to His teachings and to start showing kindness. If I follow another Messenger it is ok because I am still following an expression of God's mercy, however Baha'u'llah was sent to rejuvenate mans connection to God and to more fully express Gods teachings due to humanities' new needs and maturity, as well as to enlighten man into realizing that there really is only One common Faith.(I cant forget unify mankind) Gods mercy rains down on all, its how we choose to accept or deny it in this world that will determine whether we soar or sink. Our acceptance and/or denial of God's love and mercy determines the state of our soul. It may fade into a sinful state of non-being/"sub-human" or rise to the heights of full splendor and virtue.

"Man must be a lover of the light no matter from what day-spring it may appear. He must be a lover of the rose no matter in what soil it may be growing."
(Abdu'l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 15)

" SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."
-Baha'u'llah, Hidden Words #5

I have a question about that last quote.
" SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."

I thought that God loved everyone no matter what...? is this another one of my narrow misinterpretations

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth

I have a question about that last quote.
" SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."

I thought that God loved everyone no matter what...? is this another one of my narrow misinterpretations

Cut yourself some slack!

I think the first thing to consider is that it does not say that the individual is NOT loved, it says God's love cannot reach him. Why? Because the individual is not yet ready to accept it.

Not to harp on context, but realize that the verses does not exist in a vacuum. There's a chapter in progress over the first twenty or so verses:
1. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.
2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
3. O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
4. O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
5. O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
6. O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.
7. O SON OF MAN!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.
8. O SON OF SPIRIT!
There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me; for it behooveth thee to glory in My name, not in thine own; to put thy trust in Me and not in thyself, since I desire to be loved alone and above all that is.
9. O SON OF BEING!
My love is My stronghold; he that entereth therein is safe and secure, and he that turneth away shall surely stray and perish.
10. O SON OF UTTERANCE! Thou art My stronghold; enter therein that thou mayest abide in safety. My love is in thee, know it, that thou mayest find Me near unto thee.
11. O SON OF BEING!
Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.
12. O SON OF BEING!
With the hands of power I made thee and with the fingers of strength I created thee; and within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else, for My work is perfect and My command is binding. Question it not, nor have a doubt thereof.
13. O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.


Regards,
Scott

[arthra]

My thought on this is that some people today want unconditional love on one hand without having to fulfill any responsibilities they may have on the other... They want a "free ticket". Well I think we live in a world that has consequences and responsibilities. We have capacities and we should set about using them to do our share and exert ourselves... Nothing will happen unless we arise and exert ourselves...

"What every believer, new or old, should realise is that the Cause has the spiritual power to re-create us if we make the effort to let that power influence us, and the greatest help in this respect is prayer. We must supplicate Bahá’u’lláh to assist us to overcome the failings in our own characters, and also exert our own will-power in mastering ourselves."

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by arthra

My thought on this is that some people today want unconditional love on one hand without having to fulfill any responsibilities they may have on the other... They want a "free ticket". Well I think we live in a world that has consequences and responsibilities. We have capacities and we should set about using them to do our share and exert ourselves... Nothing will happen unless we arise and exert ourselves...

First, unconditional love means...unconditional love. That's the love we get from God. And what is our responsibility? To love, God and each other, getting as close to that same unconditional love of God as we can. And I don't mean love as an emotion...having warm fuzzy feelings toward all humanity. I mean it as Path of One recently put it in another thread: Love as choice and action. Love as forgiving each other, love as feeding, healing, teaching, supporting, including each other. Love as not judging, not cutting out, not dividing.

I don't think anyone, or at least not many emotionally stable, people are out for a metaphysical free ride.

[arthra]

"I don't think anyone, or at least not many emotionally stable, people are out for a metaphysical free ride"

A good point.


Once you have the unconditional love of your mother let's say are there not still then some expectations as a child developes?... to me love becomes a more responsible relationship as we mature and our capacities increase. I think mother love is more unconditional when less is expected but as we mature it can then be more conditional or the love say of the father. Erich Fromm talked about this considering love to be an interpersonal creative capacity.

- Art

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

First, unconditional love means...unconditional love. That's the love we get from God. And what is our responsibility? To love, God and each other, getting as close to that same unconditional love of God as we can. And I don't mean love as an emotion...having warm fuzzy feelings toward all humanity. I mean it as Path of One recently put it in another thread: Love as choice and action. Love as forgiving each other, love as feeding, healing, teaching, supporting, including each other. Love as not judging, not cutting out, not dividing.

I don't think anyone, or at least not many emotionally stable, people are out for a metaphysical free ride.

I think you guys are discussing different sides of the same coin. Of course, God's love is unconditional. Of course God's love does no particular individual any good at all if he is not willing to return it.

Christ said: "Love one another as I have loved you."
Baha`u'llah said "Love Me that I may love Thee."
Abdu'l Baha clarifies both when he said: "Love everyone for the sake of God."

If one loves God and follows God's behest to love one another--all requirements are fulfilled. The quality of love you might get from individuaqls may or may not be the kind that Abdu'l Baha describes. It does not change one's responsibilities to love God and one another. Person A is unaffected in a spiritual sense by prson C not following the precept of God, love person C anyway--why? --because God asks you to do it.

This kind of love does not prevent one from disliking individual C. It does not prevent one from deciding guilt in a criminal trial on the part of individual C. It only requires us to see that individual as a creation of God.

Regards,
Scott

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by arthra

My thought on this is that some people today want unconditional love on one hand without having to fulfill any responsibilities they may have on the other... They want a "free ticket". Well I think we live in a world that has consequences and responsibilities. We have capacities and we should set about using them to do our share and exert ourselves... Nothing will happen unless we arise and exert ourselves...

"What every believer, new or old, should realise is that the Cause has the spiritual power to re-create us if we make the effort to let that power influence us, and the greatest help in this respect is prayer. We must supplicate Bahá’u’lláh to assist us to overcome the failings in our own characters, and also exert our own will-power in mastering ourselves."

Ummm...how can there be conditions on unconditional love? You seem to be making the case that God's love is not unconditional.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I think you guys are discussing different sides of the same coin. Of course, God's love is unconditional. Of course God's love does no particular individual any good at all if he is not willing to return it.

Christ said: "Love one another as I have loved you."
Baha`u'llah said "Love Me that I may love Thee."
Abdu'l Baha clarifies both when he said: "Love everyone for the sake of God."

If one loves God and follows God's behest to love one another--all requirements are fulfilled. The quality of love you might get from individuaqls may or may not be the kind that Abdu'l Baha describes. It does not change one's responsibilities to love God and one another. Person A is unaffected in a spiritual sense by prson C not following the precept of God, love person C anyway--why? --because God asks you to do it.

This kind of love does not prevent one from disliking individual C. It does not prevent one from deciding guilt in a criminal trial on the part of individual C. It only requires us to see that individual as a creation of God.

Regards,
Scott

Scott, we agree.

[Postmaster]

Its very hard to see unconditional love without there being any value at all behind it. Unconditional love is another way for saying you will pay me back in the long term. I could be wrong and an idea i try to fight. Maybe my conclusion will change as I get older, but it's what I see around me. Just as well one will do good deed to others so that his soul will benifit in the long term. Thats from my human perspective. As for God. No idea, his unconditional love must be the greatest of all.