New Papal Edict

[pohaikawahine]

I was reading about the new Papal edict issued by Pope Benedict XVI last week approving expanded use of a prayer service that asks "divine help for Jews to overcome their blindness." When I start to believe that the world is coming into a new light of understanding .... something like this throws us backwards into darkness .... I know that many jewish organizations have responded with great concern and the head of the Anti-Defamation League said the Papal decision was a "body blow to Catholic-Jewish relations" .... I hope that some of the subscribers to this forum will also write and express objections to this edict ....

While I know I don't have to do this, I want to apologize to both bb and dauer as moderators of this segment of the forum for the small mindness of a church that I once belonged to .... awe, poh

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by pohaikawahine

I was reading about the new Papal edict issued by Pope Benedict XVI last week approving expanded use of a prayer service that asks "divine help for Jews to overcome their blindness." When I start to believe that the world is coming into a new light of understanding .... something like this throws us backwards into darkness .... I know that many jewish organizations have responded with great concern and the head of the Anti-Defamation League said the Papal decision was a "body blow to Catholic-Jewish relations" .... I hope that some of the subscribers to this forum will also write and express objections to this edict ....

While I know I don't have to do this, I want to apologize to both bb and dauer as moderators of this segment of the forum for the small mindness of a church that I once belonged to .... awe, poh

Who says your way is the enlightened way, and the Pope's is not?

No offense, but the man is simply speaking his piece, just like you...and last time I checked, "give peace a chance" isn't working either.

BB and Dauer will survive this. And the pope did not bring this issue up on CR...someone else did...

Bashing one's faith is not the best of ideas. Neither is slighting.



v/r

Q

[dauer]

Q,

It's good to see you again. I don't think it's ever a good idea to suggest that xenophobic, triumphalist statements are enlightened. And when the pope speaks his piece it's not exactly the same as you or I doing so. We don't have the same authority. In the same way if the president of the United States called all members of a particular country with somewhat similar values blind we would (hopefully) see a lot of members of the US holding him accountable. But that has nothing to do with my opinion on what the pope said, only my opinion on how you're reacting to what Poh said. My opinion on the pope is from this thread:

Mass in Latin again

where I said: "I did a little searching around the Catholic blogosphere and it looks like this has been taken a little out of context. It's not that the English mass is being replaced, but that the Latin mass, which had been forbidden, is being allowed for those communities that want it who had unfairly had it taken away. In that light I don't really think the references to Judaism are so heinous. There's nothing enforced to say that they should be said. And most religions have some triumphalist liturgy, including Judaism. See the Aleinu player.

As one catholic blogger pointed out, there are other triumphalist references in Catholic liturgy as well. In her opinion there needs to be a change in those words too, but to me as a Jew it's really not an issue. Jewish-Catholic relations are pretty good. I don't see that changing. Michael Lerner had a very different view but it was only sent via e-mail, followed by affirming comments by a Catholic and then discussion and disagreement from people who didn't like what he originally said. But unfortunately it doesn't seem to have been published to the web, just e-mailed. If anyone would like a copy let me know and I'll fwd it to you."

And Thomas seems to have generally affirmed that read of the pope's statement, which leaves your post as an example of why the pope's words should be taken more seriously than mine or yours or Poh's. There are many who would jump to defend them even if they are triumphalist, demeaning or xenophobic (which in this case I don't believe they were, just a courtesy to those who'd been robbed of their familiar practice.)

Dauer

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dauer

Q,

It's good to see you again. I don't think it's ever a good idea to suggest that xenophobic, triumphalist statements are enlightened. And when the pope speaks his piece it's not exactly the same as you or I doing so. We don't have the same authority. In the same way if the president of the United States called all members of a particular country with somewhat similar values blind we would (hopefully) see a lot of members of the US holding him accountable. But that has nothing to do with my opinion on what the pope said, only my opinion on how you're reacting to what Poh said. My opinion on the pope is from this thread:

Mass in Latin again

where I said: "I did a little searching around the Catholic blogosphere and it looks like this has been taken a little out of context. It's not that the English mass is being replaced, but that the Latin mass, which had been forbidden, is being allowed for those communities that want it who had unfairly had it taken away. In that light I don't really think the references to Judaism are so heinous. There's nothing enforced to say that they should be said. And most religions have some triumphalist liturgy, including Judaism. See the Aleinu player.

As one catholic blogger pointed out, there are other triumphalist references in Catholic liturgy as well. In her opinion there needs to be a change in those words too, but to me as a Jew it's really not an issue. Jewish-Catholic relations are pretty good. I don't see that changing. Michael Lerner had a very different view but it was only sent via e-mail, followed by affirming comments by a Catholic and then discussion and disagreement from people who didn't like what he originally said. But unfortunately it doesn't seem to have been published to the web, just e-mailed. If anyone would like a copy let me know and I'll fwd it to you."

And Thomas seems to have generally affirmed that read of the pope's statement, which leaves your post as an example of why the pope's words should be taken more seriously than mine or yours or Poh's. There are many who would jump to defend them even if they are triumphalist, demeaning or xenophobic (which in this case I don't believe they were, just a courtesy to those who'd been robbed of their familiar practice.)

Dauer

Dauer, thanks for the welcome back. You know I am a captive audience when it comes to God's people...so I speak my mind as such. But I will defer...

v/r

Q

[pohaikawahine]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Who says your way is the enlightened way, and the Pope's is not?

No offense, but the man is simply speaking his piece, just like you...and last time I checked, "give peace a chance" isn't working either.

BB and Dauer will survive this. And the pope did not bring this issue up on CR...someone else did...

Bashing one's faith is not the best of ideas. Neither is slighting.



v/r

Q

Hi Q - yes, I'm just speaking from my heart and my apology to bb and dauer was a personal one from me, I am embarressed at this edict.... I can't agree with you more that bashing one's faith is not the best of ideas and ironically I see this edict as doing just that .... the only difference is that is it put out by one who has such authority in the catholic church .... and my goodness of course the pope would not bring this up on CR, he is not a member ....this incident is small and insignificant when it comes to what the jewish people have put up with and survived .... if I offended you it was not my intent .... it is the beauty and strength of CR that we are able to share our thoughts and sometimes deep feelings .... when I expressed the thought that people write and express their feelings about the edict I didn't mean the forum on Judiasm, I was actually thinking about CR in general .... I can see where this may have been a little misleading because I posted on the Judiasm forum .... me ke aloha pumehana, poh

[wil]

To me the words of the elementary school playground are particularly poignant at this point in time.

nanny nanny boo boo, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

I firmly believe the Popes words will come back to haunt him, it will be the Catholics which will have to take the brunt of his words, taken out of context or not.

[Nick the Pilot]

Pope Benedict was totally out of line. It is things like this that made me leave the Catholic church many years ago.

"...it will be the Catholics which will have to take the brunt of his words, taken out of context or not."

--> How sad!

[dauer]

Just read a response on Reb Rami Shapiro's blog to this. It's quite refreshing: Toto: Bravo For An Honest Pope

He applauds the pope for being honest and speaks against dishonesty in interfaith dialogue. He suggests that more religious leaders should be as honest as the pope, and then maybe we can get somewhere.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

as far as i am concerned this is a massive fuss over nothing. so some catholics would like us to convert, big deal. like i care. vatican II was signed -but as someone pointed out recently, "although a week is a long time in politics, a century in religion is rushing things a bit". i personally think we have more important fish to fry then getting all wattled up about the pope, for feck's sake.

b'shalom

bananabrain