My last Thread on Comparative Religion

[Yaqinud Din]

Assalamu Alalikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh

This will be my last post on the forums I think after reading Juantoo3 thread called is Islam actually peaceful I think this thread is proof that the non Muslims here could care less about what we say we can show them from the Quran and give them all the links in the world but when it comes right down to it they are still going to hold OBL and the terrorists as the true Muslims.

Well I'm going to be working on my own msn group about Islam so I will come back and pm all my brothers my site because it would be great if you all could be apart of my msn group when I'm done with it.

Well thats it my last post on Comparative Religion.

[I, Brian]

Juantoo3 doesn't make any comments about Muslims being terrorists - what he complains about is the state of the modern Muslim world in comparison to the teachings of Islam.

Why is that so difficult to respond to?

[wil]

When I was young we were told to never discuss religion or politics. Now to me it is really all that is worth discussing. However, it is a tricky subject.

We must remember that discrimination is in the eye of the beholder. When one is at the other end of the stick it is only they that can truly say how much something hurts...and we regularly tread on sensitive ground.

Yaqinud Din, we as outsiders to Islam are very interested in knowing exactly what is going on in our world and how it is going to affect us. The rift between radical Muslims who decide to become terrorists...uh terrorizes us. The internal rifts between sects in Islam causes us consternation as well. We'd like to learn more not only for our benefit, but for the benefit of the world as a whole.

I, Brian, you have to admit that your decision to create another thread could have been a little more amicably done, and the title not been so pointed. When was the last time you beat your wife? (that is an example, the question itself contains a hidden statement, an implied truth)

123, while technically you didn't start the thread, again we (as I am regularly guilty of this) need to choose our words and state our case cleanly. I agree that there are some good points made and questions worthy of discussion. But if one can't get beyond other grizzle no one ever finds the meat.

[juantoo3]

But if one can't get beyond other grizzle no one ever finds the meat.

What you say is true. Of course, if all one cares to see is grizzle, then no matter how much meat is laid on the table, they will find the one tidbit of grizzle to chew on.

Perhaps my style tends to rub some people raw. But if the only defense to be raised is to cast doubt on me personally, then I think that speaks volumes in itself.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Is Islam a religion of peace? This question is on everyone's mind. Well, sure it is...technically. Are there some criticisms that, while universally valid, are off limits to avoid stepping in anyone's sacred cow pies? What about Israel? It's been my experience that anyone who criticizes Israel is almost immediately accused of being anti-semitic. It's just a tactic to chill the debate. Is this how we want things? No one will criticize Israel. No one will criticize Islam. No one will criticize the imperialist actions of the U.S. and its allies. C'mon. Give a little, get a little.

Chris

[taijasi]

I think as long as everyone's comfortable with the same or equivalent statement/question/thread about Christianity, like, "Is Christianity really about Love?" ... then sure. But as has been pointed out, is that kind of discussion not just begging to offend someone? Somehow?

The GRIZZLE, as you say, juantoo3?

Namaskar,

taijasi

[wil]

On the commute today I was contemplating just over 50 years ago in the US. We had what claimed to be a Christian Fundamentalist group, one that was not decried from pulpit for its terrorist activities. One that contained politicians, lawyers, law enforcement all walks of life. They were called the KKK and they marched and gathered freely. The terrorized anyone that wasn't a white anglo saxon protestant and any whites that supported equality. Segregation of public facilities and schools was the norm, not the norm, it was the law of the land. The KKK openly proudly supported violence, and Christians did not stand as a group against them.

I remember seeing Detroit burn....it lit up the skys for miles, flames leaping into the air as the riots were in full force. That was twenty years of turmoil as the US changed the laws, and found a little enlightenment.

Quite possible we can expect something similar worldwide.

[bananabrain]

It's been my experience that anyone who criticizes Israel is almost immediately accused of being anti-semitic. It's just a tactic to chill the debate. Is this how we want things? No one will criticize Israel.

sheesh - where the hell do you live?? in the uk nobody can bear to say anything less than condemnatory of israel for fear of being accused in colluding in the oppression of palestinians. that is just as bad as people not criticising islam for fear of giving offence. nobody seems to worry about offending us! all i ask is that people check their facts and avoid sloppy thinking. if, after that, the criticism is valid, then fair enough. i am perfectly happy to criticise israeli actions and policies where it is warranted, without feeling that i am impugning my judaism or zionism.

yaqinud din - i will be sorry if you stop posting. i have learned some very interesting things from reading your posts, even if i don't always agree with you; our sages say "who is wise? he who will learn from every person". i think what is bothering people is that any criticism tends to be seen as "attacking" islam as a whole. the fact remains that if, after examining an issue, one can fairly disagree with a point of view, doesn't mean the criticism isn't fair. you can't bang on about the 'umma and maintain that the islamic world is some sort of monolithic bloc, in order to define, say, the iraq war as a "war on islam" and at the same time try to distance yourselves from the extremists. either they're an islamic issue or they're not. so if you don't want obl and his horrid cohorts defining islam for everyone else, take back the agenda. that is the problem - not an unsympathetic media or public, or hidden agendas or conspiracies. address the things about islam that outsiders may find problematic and, above all, don't be so defensive. talking like the rest of the world is out to get you is not conducive to sensible discussion.

was-salaam

bananabrain

[Abubakar]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

sheesh - where the hell do you live?? in the uk nobody can bear to say anything less than condemnatory of israel for fear of being accused in colluding in the oppression of palestinians. that is just as bad as people not criticising islam for fear of giving offence. nobody seems to worry about offending us! all i ask is that people check their facts and avoid sloppy thinking. if, after that, the criticism is valid, then fair enough. i am perfectly happy to criticise israeli actions and policies where it is warranted, without feeling that i am impugning my judaism or zionism.

yaqinud din - i will be sorry if you stop posting. i have learned some very interesting things from reading your posts, even if i don't always agree with you; our sages say "who is wise? he who will learn from every person". i think what is bothering people is that any criticism tends to be seen as "attacking" islam as a whole. the fact remains that if, after examining an issue, one can fairly disagree with a point of view, doesn't mean the criticism isn't fair. you can't bang on about the 'umma and maintain that the islamic world is some sort of monolithic bloc, in order to define, say, the iraq war as a "war on islam" and at the same time try to distance yourselves from the extremists. either they're an islamic issue or they're not. so if you don't want obl and his horrid cohorts defining islam for everyone else, take back the agenda. that is the problem - not an unsympathetic media or public, or hidden agendas or conspiracies. address the things about islam that outsiders may find problematic and, above all, don't be so defensive. talking like the rest of the world is out to get you is not conducive to sensible discussion.

was-salaam

bananabrain

Sallaam Aleykum Bananabrain

I am afraid that I disagree with you.

I will try and put down what I think as politely and gently as possible. I find some of your objections to anti-Israel posts as totally over the top. this thread is an example:Palestine: Is It the Jews' Promised Land?

Your claim that everyone is unable to utter a single word of support for Israel in the UK, for fear of offending Muslims, is tosh. Of course many criticise Israel and much of it is valid, a large number of Jews here are ashamed of the high death rate of Palestinian and Lebonese Civilians at the hands of the IDF.

Personnally I am completely opposed to the Palestinian armed resistance as it has lost its way and is not fighting underour (Muslim) rules of Warfare.

I am afraid that some of your assertions here like not saying that the war on Iraq is a war on Islam and distancing ourselves from the non-Islamic actions of some Iraqis is completely without foundation.

I don't happen to believe that it is a War on Islam but has more to do with internal US Politics than anything else.

I have re-read this serveral times and even after some alterations, I find that my tone is still over harsh towards you. I trust that you will bear my inability to express myself more gently and look at the points I have raised.

Peace

[bananabrain]

aleiqum salaam abubakar,

thank you for such a considered and polite post. i don't find your tone over harsh.

I find some of your objections to anti-Israel posts as totally over the top. this thread is an example:Palestine: Is It the Jews' Promised Land?

this thread was closed, as you will see, because it was basically started from the premise that the jews' historic and ancestral link with the land of israel is somehow suspect and that basically it is all completely made up. this tendency to try and rewrite jewish history is one of the most unpleasant aspects of islamist anti-semitism. it isn't even worthy of comment, let alone refutation. it's just plain disgusting. the person who started the thread was not there to dialogue but to spout propaganda and i stand by everything i wrote there. if i was vehement it was because i felt in that case it was fully justified. if you have a problem with anything i wrote there i'd be happy to discuss it with you in the same measured and reasonable tone that you have taken here, because you are clearly not starting from the same viewpoint.

Your claim that everyone is unable to utter a single word of support for Israel in the UK, for fear of offending Muslims, is tosh.

well, i'll agree that this is perhaps somewhat over the top - put it down to a rhetorical flourish. of course it is certainly not the case in many places, but in some places, particularly left-wing, people who think of themselves as liberal intellectuals, like the media and the "chattering classes" circles, it certainly can be.

Of course many criticise Israel and much of it is valid, a large number of Jews here are ashamed of the high death rate of Palestinian and Lebonese Civilians at the hands of the IDF.

i will of course also concede that there are places, particularly in the jewish community, where any criticism of israel whatsoever, however mild, friendly, constructive or reasonable, is immediately condemned as somehow anti-semitic and this, similarly, is most unhelpful. but this is by no means true of everywhere, as with anti-israel sentiment. i guess what i am saying is that there are some places/discussions/environments (like student unions, for example - look at what's going on in leeds) where anything less than full, frank and wholehearted condemnation of israel and all its works, institutions, citizens and policies is construed to be somehow "backward". obviously, that's student unions for you. both "sides" of course bang on about how the whole environment is biased against them (look at the discussions about the bbc's middle east coverage for a start - surely if both sides are complaining it's unfair to them all the time they might actually be striking a reasonable balance?) what i really object to is how the most extreme opinions are those that dominate discussions, so it becomes a dialogue of the deaf. consequently, there are some people (like the aforementioned thread-starter) who you just can't talk to - so i don't talk to them. i don't enjoy wasting my time.

Personnally I am completely opposed to the Palestinian armed resistance as it has lost its way and is not fighting under our (Muslim) rules of Warfare.

i don't think it ever had its way right to start with. i would also suspect that there isn't an armed islamic group in the world, or ever has been since the time of muhammad, that stuck to the rules the way that it ought to. even the "battle of the trench" raises some serious problems for me, for all that i think muhammad was largely very poorly treated by the so-called jewish tribes of arabia.

I am afraid that some of your assertions here like not saying that the war on Iraq is a war on Islam and distancing ourselves from the non-Islamic actions of some Iraqis is completely without foundation.

I don't happen to believe that it is a War on Islam but has more to do with internal US Politics than anything else.

why is what i say "without foundation"? i'm a little bit confused seeing that the second statement appears to agree with my viewpoint as well.

if you'd like to take this discussion over to the "politics" forum, feel free.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Yaqinud Din

Well thats it my last post on Comparative Religion.

See ya.