Music and Worship

[wil]

Originally Posted by Prober

Ours is quite similar. One part that always gets me - when the preachers come in from their "secret place behind the baptistry", a prayer response plays very softly on the organ. Then, everything cranks up and we sing the doxology.

I always imagine G-d watching the preachers coming in during the prayer response and then unfolding His arms, letting His powerful golden presence stream out to fill the church during the doxology.

I had to look up bapistry and doxology...is there a particular song everytime or are they different? I guess our doxology is the Lord's Prayer? (we turn the lights out for the preservice meditation, the post talk guided meditation, and during the Lord's Prayer song as a way to get centered) Our minister, or whoever is speaking, as well as the choir sit amongst the congregation...they don't 'appear'

We do have fun. Last week they asked me to do a promo for the Jazz night, and Butch had started this new series called Exploring your Untapped Potential...in my head I kept getting it backwards and contemplating Tapping your Unexplored Potential. Well they always know they run risks sending me to the lecturn unscripted and as we have a discussion group prior to service which discusses, contemplates, tears apart the talk from the previous week...I indicated that our discussion would revolve around "How much untapped potential could a unitic explore if a unitic could tap unexplored potential?"

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hey, you've got a right smorgasboard haven't you? When I go to a church I would have to describe it as uninvolving and the people uninvolved. And when I occasionally catch a glimpse of Songs of Praise (BBC TV Sunday Christian programme) the people look simply self-conscious and/or embarrassed (maybe that's the cameras but I don't think that's all of it). Sounds like you've got something well groovy going on there.

I enjoy the heck out of it...but often have to listen online or cassete/cd as I play with the children most of the time... oh and one of my favorite parts is the end..circling up and gathering hands and singing "Let there be Love on Earth" and the "Prayer for Protection" I used to look around the circle and focus on the folks I know, catching eyes and smiles...I still do, but now I also focus on folks I don't know, or have never seen before, so I can insure I say hi and steal a hug from them before they go!

Let there be love on earth and let it begin with me
Let there be love on earth the love that was meant to be
With God as our father brothers all are we
Let us walk with each other in perfect harmony.

Let love begin with me let this be the moment now
With every step I take let this be my solemn vow
To take each moment and live each moment in love eternally
Let there be love on earth and let it begin with me

---and then--

The light of God surrounds you,

The love of God enfolds you,

The power of God protects you,

And the presence of God watches over you;

Wherever you are, God is.
And that's the TRUTH

[Prober]

Originally Posted by wil

I had to look up bapistry and doxology...is there a particular song everytime or are they different? I guess our doxology is the Lord's Prayer? (we turn the lights out for the preservice meditation, the post talk guided meditation, and during the Lord's Prayer song as a way to get centered) Our minister, or whoever is speaking, as well as the choir sit amongst the congregation...they don't 'appear'

The "doxology" is also called "Old Hundredth" and starts "Praise God from whom all blessings flow...". We have our heads bowed when the preachers come in (centering) so they seemingly "appear".

Since I go to a church in a retirement community (no, I'm not that old, I just go there!), we only have choir during the winter when all the "snowbirds" have returned. I sing in and love the choir!

[Victor]

To all the Saints:
If I may, I would like to respond to the original post first. I am a Lutheran. My family is Catholic, so we are members of a ‘liturgical’ Church. The Mass as practiced in both sects of Christianity makes extensive use of music. The ‘chant’ is far more prominent in the Catholic service, but as a
Cantor in our service I do use one of four settings. It is normally a solo offering that is meant to call the congregation to prayer. The opening theme is obvious: in Gregorian chant, “In peace let us pray to
The Lord!” It is called, The Kyrie. The Cantor sings a lead line, and the congregation responds. As far as the Pastor is concerned, the entire service can be sung!

All of this is not so much an articulation of a solo performance but is meant to be inspirational. There are usually several hymns sung by the congregation and we sing a hymn of praise. The choir sings a special during the offering and then it’s on to Communion, the Sanctus, etc. In essence, the singing is meant to draw the congregation into the service, (prayer to
and worship of God), as an integral ‘actor’ in the service which culminates in the Eucharist. It is totally unlike fundamentalist services. If one ‘gets the spirit’ it is a realization of the presence of the Holy Spirit
within the confines of the congregation as an existing entity.

In our Church, one to which I have been affiliated since 1971, that presence can be certain unexplainable noises, 'movement' within the confines of sanctuary during meditation and prayer, the sound of voices during
the musical interludes in the service. Many have heard untold voices singing with the congregation or the choir as music overcomes the normal emotions.

Which brings us to, The Spririt! I would agree that in many cases it is emotional reaction that leads to the gyrations often exhibited in ‘church’ meetings. Not only music but a base, unaccompanied rhythmic beat,
can be the catalyst of what some call an exhibit of the Spirit. Unfortunately, most folks cannot divine one spirit from another, be it the human spirit, an emotional response to a crowd, or the true Holy Spirit. That is unfortunate. In my case, and I am only being honest with you, I can divine spirits, human, evil, and Holy!

When you are alone in a Church (and we won’t restrict it to that building alone) and in the midst of prayer you are suddenly physically crushed into the floor by a presence you cannot deny, and the ceiling beam
begins to groan and crack like a massive tree getting ready to fall, there can be no question in your mind as to Who is present with you. A physical interaction between you and God’s Holy Spirit is painful, it can be terrifying, and it can take you to a plain of existence which is enough to drive the human ‘vessel’ insane! But then, I am different. I consider myself to be of an intellectual bent. Yet, I am aware of the physical presence of ‘shadows’ (angels) and yes, I do have waking and sleeping visions. To date, all have come into existence.

It is a sad story, those few that I have met in my lifetime like myself, are never truly a part of the Church society. We seldom feel as though we belong and relegate ourselves to study and teaching. I chose to make
myself available as a teacher, a Cantor, and a Lector, but I still do not feel as though I am a part of the Church body. But we do not resort to arm-waving, jumping up and down or screaming like maniacs, although I would
never rule out that reception of the Holy Spirit can effect individuals in that way, but not every time you see a service, not two or three times a week, or every night on television.

On the other hand, if I attend a Baptist or Methodist service I do not feel as though I have been to a Church service, although I have had Spirit experiences in a Baptist Church; one being an Exorcism.
I Am, l as always.

Victor G

[InLove]

Hi All

Been following this thread since the outset, figuring I might attempt a few words eventually. Maybe I’ll jump in now. Hmmm….swan dive or belly buster? Either way, I gotta say:

I see Music as a multi-versed language in itself. I often wonder if the first Word ever spoken was “musical”. I like to think so. In fact, much of language is actually rather musical to my ears. Considering the fact that both oral and written Traditions dating back to “beginnings” continue to preserve, create and utilize what we perceive as “musical” in worship leaves me wondering if there might not have been more music in those grunts and groans we often attribute to the prehistoric folks who contributed things like fire and the wheel. And…indulge me for a moment, please…did Jesus sing? Well, probably at least at his “Bar Mitzvah”, wouldn’t you think? (I hope my Jewish friends will forgive me if I am a little off in my wording there, but I am fairly confident you know what I am trying to convey.)

Having been pretty deeply involved in the music ministries of three Protestant Christian churches of different denominations, as well as having a great interest in the music of all religions and cultures, I’d say that if one is open to a spiritual appreciation of music, one will no doubt find it. I honestly do not think that one person can determine for another whether an experience involving music (or anything else, for that matter) is spiritual or emotional. I think there is probably too much emphasis on division in this area anyway. I’m not saying there isn’t a difference, but it makes sense to me that a certain amount of emotion is a natural result of any spiritual experience. I might even go so far as to suggest that how we follow up on these resulting emotions is indicative of the spirit we perceive or receive within the music. I’d like to also add that Music is sometimes misunderstood or misappropriated. But it would take a lot of typing and thought to elaborate on that here, and my energy level is too low for that at present, plus I don’t wish to derail….

Even though most of my physical churchgoing experience has over the years been hosted by the Baptists and Methodists, I love the inspiration and beauty I find in Gregorian chants, in Eastern Traditions, in the offerings of a Jewish cantor, in the indescribable strains of calls to worship in many places. It may sometimes reach beyond my present understanding, but then that is what music can do.

Well, I’ve rattled on long enough here, but on a lighter note (oh the joy of an unexpected pun that just flows out from the fingers!): I have to comment on a couple of items in the thread. Regarding the “secret places” from which the clergy seem to “appear”: Hehe, I’ve been in them—they are just dressing rooms and offices where works and people are prepared for service. They are rooms that need cleaning and maintenance, and they are places where tears, joy, laughter, heartache, confessions, Love, Wisdom, and even Music are shared. And I can certainly relate to Victor’s comments about the awesome experience of being totally alone in a church preparing the music. I must admit that I was a bit confused about the exorcism comment in relation to the Baptists, because I have been a Baptist of a couple of different persuasions, and I have never heard of this. But I went surfing, and there it was, so surprise to me! Maybe I didn’t know all of this because of my gender or something….lol…

InPeace,
InLove

[Prober]

Originally Posted by InLove

Regarding the “secret places” from which the clergy seem to “appear”: Hehe, I’ve been in them—they are just dressing rooms and offices where works and people are prepared for service. They are rooms that need cleaning and maintenance, and they are places where tears, joy, laughter, heartache, confessions, Love, Wisdom, and even Music are shared.

InPeace,
InLove

I go back there all the time, now. As a child, it was a "mystical place".

My family went to an A&W drive-in once when I was a very young. My dad ordered into the speaker and the food magically appeared, hanging from a tray on the door. I puzzled over that for years until I realized that I must have had my head down when the waitress brought it.

Same thing with the preachers.

Thanks for jumping in.

Regards,
Mark

[17th Angel]

Music is a key to the emotions of man.... They are passionate... On either side of the scale... The kind, soft and angelic side... And the fast, hard, anger side.... Either way music is a way to set a mood.... Such as romantic meal for two... a scary scene in a movie... a heroic scene in a movie.... a long morning in a church....

[Victor]

InLove:
Nice to meet you. Thought I would take a few minutes respite from work, that being a fourth thesis for this site. My music goes back to the age of nine, a prodigy. The first music was that of the inflections of the human voice! As mentioned, I also serve as a Lector. We read one set of scriptures each from the Old and New Testament. In between we we 'read' a Psalm. It is called a Psalmody! The practice goes back thousands of years to the old story tellers, or as they became known, the 'singers'. As you probably know, the Psalms are really songs. They were spoken rather than 'sung' as we know music today, and King David is probably one of the foremost 'singers' or 'story-tellers' of old. The 'singer' could be accompanied by a musical instrument, usually just a single note that kept a basic beat. The story of Genesis is probably one of the oldest 'stories' used by the ancients. So when a Lector reads the Scriptures, they are truly, 'singing a story' especially when they read the Psalms.

As for Jesus, I think you may have had the same thought I have had. When Jesus read in the Synagogue he was acting as an ancient 'story-teller'. If he read a Psalm, then he was carrying on the tradition of the ancients as a 'singer'. And I do not believe that your gender has anything to do with your intellect or your 'spiritual' endeavors. We each accept what we are, and in the end, it is all ONE thing, yes?
I Am, as always.

Victor G

[cyberpi]

Victor!

I'd like to attend your liturgical Church and learn more about it. Does it sport a crescent moon in place of a cross? I ask because I was unaware that any Lutheran used the Qur'an to teach that the Gospels were corrupted. Is that not an innovation for a church? I definitely see some Lutheran beliefs regarding Law vs Gospel in your writings; however, I was unaware that any denied the last supper, the sacrifice, crucifixion and resurrection. Once the latter is denied then I should think a church would find it wrong to sport a cross.

While I interpret the Qur'an differently regarding crucifixion, I am just as happy to prostrate in a mosque as I am to share communion in a church. I'm clearly not mainstream either. I sincerely would like to learn more about this liturgical church because it 'sounds' innovative. Is it just outside of Atlanta?

[wil]

Originally Posted by InLove

HI often wonder if the first Word ever spoken was “musical”. I like to think so.

ever been in an om circle of thousands? the wavering vibration is incredibly musical...much like that box the Hindu's open and close during chants...

I think the first sound an aum as the universe vibrated could have very well instigated the big bang....of course I think aum could also be pronounced (or sung) as I Am, in another language...

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by InLove

And…indulge me for a moment, please…did Jesus sing?

"And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives." - Matthew 26:30

Jesus and His disciples sang right after the Last Supper.

[wil]

thought I should post this example of music and worship...

The tribes are spread all over the countryside...in the morning of the day celebrating the birth of all...it is celebrated in silence...from the time you awake....you here nature...the rustling of the trees, the movement of the animals...the songs of the birds and the rustling of humans waking up and preparing meals...in silence.

If it hasn't happened already a hole is dug in the center of the great meadow, a fallen tree is selected, debarked, hauled to the center and planted. There are folks sitting in the meadow in prayer, there are folks in walking meditation, there are folks finishing up chores at camp...and the crew finishes tamping the ground and laying out the bark, mementos of life are hung from the tree which stands alone in the meadow...

The tribes individually and in groups begin coming in, from the woods, from the valleys, from the canyons...a circle around the tree...the aum starts reverberating...as more come in the circle grows and grows till you can't see the other side...or if you can it is just line of color and flesh across the way...a line seperating the meadow from the trees...or from sky...and the circle grows...and the aum is all you hear.

Eventually the children come up from kid's camp, with flags and banners, colorfully dressed and parading into the meadow as they form an innercircle....The sun is high in the sky the circle collapses on its center in joy the silence is broken and the drumming, dancing and eating starts...the drumming and dancing continues into the night...it is ceremony, it is worship, it is celebration....it is an experience to behold.

[cyberpi]

I find the same effect can be had playing in a band or orchestra. Especially a smaller group like a jazz band or a brass ensemble that practice enough times to really get tight. There is an alignment, a tightness, or a tuning between the minds of each individual. Kind of like birds that fly in a formation. In fact any kind of structured group dance or even heal pounding military or marching band can have a similar effect. As I see it, Muslims lined up in prayer is nearly identical to a Gregorian chant. There is a coordination, a simultaneous movement, a simultaneous action in the minds of individuals. It is a powerful reinforcement. Which can be negative.... anything to involve a group in simultaneous or coordinated action is a powerful reinforcement. I agree with Francis King where individuals get hooked by euphoria and don't realize it. Individuals can be driven away from independent judgment. Group values are more easily accepted as sort of a groupthink. Afterall, being independent and judgmental might require giving up that euphoria and instead being in dischord with a group.

Has anyone seen the animated movie, "Happy Feet"? It goes well with this thread and that documentary film, "March of the Penguins". While "Happy Feet" is a children's film, the coordination that is made possible by computer graphic rendering and then projected onto penguins is extraordinary. Its plot and music go together.

[Victor]

cyberpi:
Do not get me wrong, the Lutheran Church is almost Catholic in its form since it was derived from the Catholic faith. We are not as formal but retain a reflection of the Mass. We have a Cross, not a Crucifix, hanging above the Altar.

I teach an advanced class on Sunday Morning. We search many forms of sacred writings to add to our knowledge of the scriptures and the history of the Church in its beginnings. We often search beyond the Bible for our small group believes that God spoke to many, in various ways, not just to one. The Bible, with its 1600 different translations, is not the only Word God sent to Believers. The Quran contains much of Christian history in its revelations concerning, Mary, Anna, Elizabeth, Zachariah, and Jesus as Messiah! The Lutheran Church does not delve into these areas, nor do the Catholics, or most of the Christian sects. But due to the open mind of our particular Church we are permitted to search with freedom beyond normal limits. Many churches would not permit our method of discovery.

My own PERSONAL life has been led by the Spirit. I was called out of the Church to serve God at His bidding. Most of what I write for this site may well be in direct contradiction to the churches teachings. Most assuridly, The Pauline Conspiracy, proves that point. I have been led to believe that it has influenced many. The thesis I am now editing will literally blow the lid off the conventional Church and its teachings, but it is necessary to voice MY PERSONAL OPINION as to the true nature of Jesus, John, their ministries and their priestly and political innovations in first century Palestine!

The Church will be hard pressed to keep their composure, but then as I look
at it, ignorance finds fertile ground in closed minds!

I thank you for your inquiry. You might visit any Lutheran Church in Atlanta, mine is in Forest Park, the only one and it has a very small congregation.
I Am, as always.

Victor G

[cyberpi]

Victor, sent you a PM... I have to be in Atlanta twice this year and would like to visit. Thanks.

[Victor]

To All Good People:
I have read the many comments on this subject and have found them to have been written in a polite and understanding manner. They vary in many ways, but then, God loves diversity. But I am afraid there is another side to this subject upon which I must comment simply because of the world in which we live.

Music and worship have a dark side! They can also conjure up images of prejudice, discord, and hatred. In the small area in which I live, as poor as it is, there are those in other sects of Christianity who believe that music in a worship service is of the Devil! They condemn those of us who have music in our services and they are vehement when they condemn those who use it.
There are several Christian Churches here that condemn our manner of worship; they believe that worship using a form of the mass to any extent is sacrilege! They believe that celebrating the Communion as a Sacrament is evil; that it is wrong, and some even say that it is demonic!

Hard to believe? I remember when our little church was being organized; there were some good Christian folks who thought it so evil that they fired gunshots through the front of our church building on more than one occasion.
Why? Because we were Lutherans.

And this does not just extend to music and our set forms of worship because we worship in other ways. We worship by expressing our Faith in study where others, even of our own religion, condemn us for going. To learn of Torah, to investigate the beginnings of our own Christianity religion through the
Jewish-Christian movement in the Jerusalem Church, to study and comment on Paul’s missionary journeys whether in the negative or the positive, to learn of the revelations of Islam’s great Prophet (pbuh), to view Jesus in a manner not condoned by the ‘Church’; these things are condemned and hated by many. Even the comments we make in our writings on this site can conjure up hatred and thoughts of violence against us.

Believe me, I have felt the harsh judgment of many for daring to express myself in our church and on this site through my simple theses. So I am forced to note that even in the hospitality of the deep Southern
part of the United States, music and worship and even our religious writings can create an atmosphere of hatred and violence against us as individuals. Even in the class that I lead, we were forced to post a warning that it might be considered controversial! This in our own Church because we dare to study what others do not understand?

Well, I am too old to worry about it. I don’t have that much longer to live. I just want those of us who share our thoughts and our faith on this site and others, to know that religious freedom is not as free as we might believe. Whether or not it carries God's blessings, it can just as easily carry men's hatred.
I Am, as always.

Victor G