Music and Worship

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Hey Chris

I certainly remember being a kid bouncing down the road in my new sneakers, and yes, it sure did feel good.
My point of contention though isn't, and has never been, what the feeling is, just whether its attributable to the Holy Spirit.
Since people of other faiths also experience these great, religiously based highs, can they all be a result of the Holy Spirit? Possibly you would say yes (I don't know), that all religions lead, or can lead, to the same God. Many though do not hold this view, many believe that Christianity is the only way. I have a problem with people like this using these experiences as some kind of validation of their religion, while at the same denying similar experiences in those of other religions. I have a problem with it because it's just a weak argument. Either the experiences of those in other religions are valid which would suggest that Christianity isn't the only path to God (or isn't a path to God at all), or they are not valid, but if they are not then questions have to asked of the experiences of Christians also.

I agree with you cav.. Emotional experiences with God are questionable.. We arent supposed to let our emotions rule our relationship with God because that would be allowing your carnal self lead the show. Ypi cant deny it though when you feel the joy the Lord bestows on those He blesses. There is a difference between being on a spiritual "High" and being blessed with His presence. Im sorry I cant explain it.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Hey Chris

I certainly remember being a kid bouncing down the road in my new sneakers, and yes, it sure did feel good.
My point of contention though isn't, and has never been, what the feeling is, just whether its attributable to the Holy Spirit.
Since people of other faiths also experience these great, religiously based highs, can they all be a result of the Holy Spirit? Possibly you would say yes (I don't know), that all religions lead, or can lead, to the same God. Many though do not hold this view, many believe that Christianity is the only way. I have a problem with people like this using these experiences as some kind of validation of their religion, while at the same denying similar experiences in those of other religions. I have a problem with it because it's just a weak argument. Either the experiences of those in other religions are valid which would suggest that Christianity isn't the only path to God (or isn't a path to God at all), or they are not valid, but if they are not then questions have to asked of the experiences of Christians also.

I was kinda thinking, from a tourist perspective mostly, that it isn't any different. I think that because Christianity is close to home I dismiss it. I always find foreign cultures more interesting than my own just because they're exotic and different. I don't wonder , say, whether some ecstatic Hare Krishna festival participants are gettin' down with the real Krishna spirit. It would never even occur to me to question it. If the people in either circumstance are having a good time with their cultural thing, then I think it must be the same kind of good spirit thing. But I think that each group has a particular kind of mojo that goes into their thing, so I wouldn't say that Krishna Spirit and Holy Spirit are the same.

Chris

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I agree with you cav.. Emotional experiences with God are questionable.. We arent supposed to let our emotions rule our relationship with God because that would be allowing your carnal self lead the show. Ypi cant deny it though when you feel the joy the Lord bestows on those He blesses. There is a difference between being on a spiritual "High" and being blessed with His presence. Im sorry I cant explain it.

Ok, fair enough. I guess we've both stated our cases. Sorry to say that I remain skeptical, but I do like what you've written here and see nothing bad in the fact that you can't explain. Like you said in an earlier post, either I know what talking about, or I don't.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I was kinda thinking, from a tourist perspective mostly, that it isn't any different. I think that because Christianity is close to home I dismiss it. I always find foreign cultures more interesting than my own just because they're exotic and different. I don't wonder , say, whether some ecstatic Hare Krishna festival participants are gettin' down with the real Krishna spirit. It would never even occur to me to question it. If the people in either circumstance are having a good time with their cultural thing, then I think it must be the same kind of good spirit thing. But I think that each group has a particular kind of mojo that goes into their thing, so I wouldn't say that Krishna Spirit and Holy Spirit are the same.

Chris

Ok, I guess my post was, not for the first time, badly worded.
Maybe you would not question people from other religions but many would. Certainly the Christians I grew up with would say that they were either deluded, or were being fooled by the devil. My point would be that if this accusation could be levelled at other religions, it could also be levelled at Christianity.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Ok, I guess my post was, not for the first time, badly worded.

Me too. What I was trying to say is...imagine you're some whirling dervish dude observing a Pentacostal revival. It's as weird looking to him as he would be to the charismatic Christian dude. Maybe he's not thinking, "isn't it a pity they're lost, I'm so glad I'm not" like the Christian, but he's still got some conception that this singing and praising, and running around saying hallelujah is strange, and maybe inferior to what he does with his whirling thing, which makes perfect sense, and seems quite normal to him.

It seems to me that it's easy to criticize Christianity because it's so close. It's hard to see it as weird and wonderful the way we can easily see something foreign and different, by virtue of the distance between that and us. I know any number of ex-Christians who have nothing but disdain for Christianity, but are gaga for anything with a hint of eastern flavor. Christian folks are ignorant hicks, but Tibetans who put colorful caps on their kids heads so the evil spirits will mistake them for flowers are ever so highly advanced. We're so darn enamoured of the touristy stuff, and so jaded and judgemental when it comes to our own ethnic religion.

Chris

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Me too. What I was trying to say is...imagine you're some whirling dervish dude observing a Pentacostal revival. It's as weird looking to him as he would be to the charismatic Christian dude. Maybe he's not thinking, "isn't it a pity they're lost, I'm so glad I'm not" like the Christian, but he's still got some conception that this singing and praising, and running around saying hallelujah is strange, and maybe inferior to what he does with his whirling thing, which makes perfect sense, and seems quite normal to him.

It seems to me that it's easy to criticize Christianity because it's so close. It's hard to see it as weird and wonderful the way we can easily see something foreign and different, by virtue of the distance between that and us. I know any number of ex-Christians who have nothing but disdain for Christianity, but are gaga for anything with a hint of eastern flavor. Christian folks are ignorant hicks, but Tibetans who put colorful caps on their kids heads so the evil spirits will mistake them for flowers are ever so highly advanced. We're so darn enamoured of the touristy stuff, and so jaded and judgemental when it comes to our own ethnic religion.

Chris

Where is this coming from?
I haven't written anything that would suggest I think other religions are superior to Christianity.
I'm not critical of Christianity per se. I am however skeptical of people claiming to have moved by the, or a spirit. It would not matter what that spirit was, or what religion the person came from.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Oh, sorry. I was just using your remarks as a diving board. No, you're point is valid, I think.

Chris

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

when 2 or more are gathered in His name He IS among them.

AMEN!

[Prober]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Christian folks are ignorant hicks, but Tibetans who put colorful caps on their kids heads so the evil spirits will mistake them for flowers are ever so highly advanced. We're so darn enamoured of the touristy stuff, and so jaded and judgemental when it comes to our own ethnic religion.

Chris

Certainly true! But I'd take Bach over tibetan music!

[Victor]

I have got to get into this, it is too good to pass up! Be back later!!
Victor G

[Francis king]

... to me, there is a difference between feeling caught up in the crowd's momentum and feeling the holy spirit... they are not the same, and u might convince yourself they are, but u can only do that honestly if u don't know what the spirit really feels like... there is no human feeling like it, except love, and even real big love is a poor approximation... saying that, that feeling which I attribute to the holy spirit I have experienced in different surroundings, in catholic churches, in quaker meeting houses, in buddhist temples, in pagan moots, and I like to think that this spirit I encounter is not so small and vague that it only appears to a certain type of xtian in a certain type of church at a certain time, , and I feel that this essence, this spirit, is something universal which transcends creed, and which is the true sign of God's blessing, no matter what ur faith is... think of Highlander the movie and "the quickening"- that's what its like when the holy spirit comes... its either that or I have temporal lobe epilepsy...

evangelical pop worship is to me, a little sad... ppl are standing around, at a concert without any beer or waccy baccy, desperate to feel something, and they are so desperate to feel something because in reality their lives are very empty indeed, and so all those lustful or magical or egotistical feelings they have that they suppress can then found an estatic outlet... they don't watch TV, they don't read many books, they don't listen to normal bands, they don't mess about with hairstyles and fashion and all those other wonderful entertainments which placate the massses are not open to them... that's why ppl get off on God concerts... all that repressed emotionality suddenly surfaces, and bam! ppl are swooning and dropping like flies, pogo-ing in the aisles... first time in ages most of them have been able to just be...

between the ages of 14-25, the easiest way to get ppl to learn new concepts and to adopt these beliefs or behaviours is...

via music...

interesting, isn't it..? stick a catchy tune behind almost anything, play it to kids a few times and they will remember it for years... it has something to do with brain development...

beyond that, though, I think the Gods love music...

[Dondi]

evangelical pop worship is to me, a little sad... ppl are standing around, at a concert without any beer or waccy baccy, desperate to feel something, and they are so desperate to feel something because in reality their lives are very empty indeed, and so all those lustful or magical or egotistical feelings they have that they suppress can then found an estatic outlet... they don't watch TV, they don't read many books, they don't listen to normal bands, they don't mess about with hairstyles and fashion and all those other wonderful entertainments which placate the massses are not open to them... that's why ppl get off on God concerts... all that repressed emotionality suddenly surfaces, and bam! ppl are swooning and dropping like flies, pogo-ing in the aisles... first time in ages most of them have been able to just be...

Back when I was naive about the things of God, I've been in meetings like this. Sometimes felt it, sometimes not. It is strange because a few things happen. One, you don't want to appear not to be in the spirit, else everyone will think something was wrong with you. Two, so you try to hype yourself into the spirit. Three, when it doesn't work, you feel disappointed and like God didn't want to meet with you that day. Maybe it was someone else's blessing that day. So you come out feeling empty and disappointed. But other times you do feel it and all is well.

Looking back though, it seems to me that it is more like looking for a "spiritual cocktail" during God's Happy Hour, seeking to be drunk in the spirit. But the thing is, that doesn't really change you life. Problems don't go away. Real change doesn't come from slipping on the spiritual nightgown, but by being in obedience to His Word.

I've found the presence of God's Spirit to be evident more as an aftereffect of living what I've read and trying to obey God than being part of the frenzy that proports to be worship of God. What dawns on me is that the worship of God is for Him, not us. We ought not to expect to feel anything when we come together and sing praises to His Name and proclaim His Greatness. Because as we live the Christian life (or whatever religious life), we will see God working in us in our daily affairs, and then when we come together in congregation, we can celebrate the good things God has done our of the gratitude of our heart. Then as a result of all that, the Spirit, like the wind, will blow through our temples and manifest Himself to us, like Jesus said:

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." - John 14:21

[wil]

tis funny, for me to enjoy music I no longer need alcohol or waccy tobaccy...of course I did as a kid...or did I. I think it was just the venue...ie sex, drugs, rock and roll and booze just coincided.

It is said when you sing you pray twice...

Getting caught up in the music is relatively easy to do...when the music is good it moves you...when music and lyrics strike a chord...spiritual or not...a connection is made.

Our church starts out with silent meditation 20 minutes before service for those that like quiet time together..5 minutes prior to the start the piano starts breaking the silence and bringing folks back into the here and now.

Service begins with a congregational song, some announcements, a choir song, singing the Lord's Prayer as a congregation, the talk, a guided meditation to music, a soloist or group performs during the offering, some more announcements, and then we break bread, and fruit and veggies, and whatever together...

Music is definitely part of our worship...but so is silence.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by wil

Service begins with a congregational song, some announcements, a choir song, singing the Lord's Prayer as a congregation, the talk, a guided meditation to music, a soloist or group performs during the offering, some more announcements, and then we break bread, and fruit and veggies, and whatever together...

Music is definitely part of our worship...but so is silence.

Ours is quite similar. One part that always gets me - when the preachers come in from their "secret place behind the baptistry", a prayer response plays very softly on the organ. Then, everything cranks up and we sing the doxology.

I always imagine G-d watching the preachers coming in during the prayer response and then unfolding His arms, letting His powerful golden presence stream out to fill the church during the doxology.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by wil

Our church starts out with silent meditation 20 minutes before service for those that like quiet time together..5 minutes prior to the start the piano starts breaking the silence and bringing folks back into the here and now.

Service begins with a congregational song, some announcements, a choir song, singing the Lord's Prayer as a congregation, the talk, a guided meditation to music, a soloist or group performs during the offering, some more announcements, and then we break bread, and fruit and veggies, and whatever together...

Music is definitely part of our worship...but so is silence.

Hey, you've got a right smorgasboard haven't you? When I go to a church I would have to describe it as uninvolving and the people uninvolved. And when I occasionally catch a glimpse of Songs of Praise (BBC TV Sunday Christian programme) the people look simply self-conscious and/or embarrassed (maybe that's the cameras but I don't think that's all of it). Sounds like you've got something well groovy going on there.

s.