Moshiach

[chokmah]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

that's not entirely correct. the nassi or chief is r. adin steinsaltz, who is one of the world's leading talmudic scholars. i think the issue is more that the rest of the 71 scholars are simply not well-known or authoritative enough and that many leading scholars are not actually included. without general consent from the community (and it is hard to see how that could really be established) that a sanhedrin is "kosher", there will be debates as to whether its rulings are binding as sanhedrin rulings - which is probably why it has confined itself to such trivial matters as declaring pheasant to be officially a kosher bird, rather than addressing itself to such controversial and fundamental matters as agunah or land for peace. i think what r. steinsaltz is doing is probably an experiment, a dry run to see what the practicalities are of reintroducing a communal structure that has not existed for nearly 2000 years.

Shalom Banana:

Thank you for the clarification. I have only heard snippets from some of my Jewish friends as to the consideration of the Sanhedrin. It's kind of interesting how the breakdown goes (from my POV):

Orthodox Jews - little to no support of the Sanhedrin
Conservative Jews - a little bit more, but not much.
Reform - "six one way, half a dozen the other"

What I have found particularly disturbing (ignorantly, I admit) is that some Noachides that I have recently run into are "full-on" for this Sanhedrin to start entering into judgments. They are especially interested in the whole Noachide affirmation and such. My reservation comes from understanding that the Noachide movement is primarily supported through Rabbinic Judaism. And since Rabbinic Judaism is not fully supporting this Sanhedrin, it seems like some of my new acquaintances are putting the cart before the horse. Anyways...

Originally Posted by Banana

that's right. except there's an argument as to which ought to be done first. obviously it's pretty scary if we get it wrong.

That's quite true. A facet of "Messianic" studies that I have come across and you're more than welcome to affirm or deny is that the Messiah is actually not deemed Messiah UNTIL all these things have been accomplished. Do you have an opinion on that matter?

Originally Posted by Banana

to be precise - the creation of a "court of 71" is a Torah law - see numbers 11:16, whereas the *procedure* is set out in the "sanhedrin" tractates of the mishnah and gemara and in subsequent codes such as the "yad hahazaqah" of maimonides.

b’shalom

bananabrain

I was under the impression that the historical timeline of the Sanhedrin and Rabbinic authority went something like this:

Moses => Joshua => Judges => other unknowns to me => the establishment of the Sanhedrin by Ezra. Please feel free to educate me on the matter. I'll peruse 11:16 in the meanwhile.

My statement above was not to say that there wasn't precedent for the Sanhedrin in the Torah, but instead, the Oral Toral does not stand or fall dependent on the Sanhedrin. The Oral Torah was transmitted to Moses at the same time as the Written. Therefore, the Oral Torah pre-dates the Sanhedrin. But alas, even that could be wrong.

[InChristAlways]

From post #15
Hi bananabrain. Some "Christ"-ians [like me] do not follow the beliefs that apocolyptic "futurists"[Hal Lindsey] and most "messianics" do, though the Bible does appear to imply that the "Day of the Lord/New heaven and earth" happens After Moshiach comes to bring the New Covenant to Israel.[Note Isaiah 28 and Daniel's 70 weeks]...............

What I have found particularly disturbing (ignorantly, I admit) is that some Noachides that I have recently run into are "full-on" for this Sanhedrin to start entering into judgments. My reservation comes from understanding that the Noachide movement is primarily supported through Rabbinic Judaism. And since Rabbinic Judaism is not fully supporting this Sanhedrin, it seems like some of my new acquaintances are putting the cart before the horse. Anyways.............

Shalom chokmah. I just saw your post after I made mine.
May I ask what the "Noachide movement" is and are they a different sect than Judaism is? And what is their view of the Moshiach? They do not believe Jesus was the Moshiach correct?

Sorry, but I have never heard of this movement until now. Thanks and Peace.
Steve

[chokmah]

Originally Posted by InChristAlways

May I ask what the "Noachide movement" is and are they a different sect than Judaism is?

Shalom ICA:

You may certainly ask!

The "Noachide movement" is not a sect of Judaism. It is, essentially, the moral code/commandments that were established for all of mankind in the covenant with Noach. The short form of this code is "The Seven Laws of Noach".

The following is taken from an old wikipedia link that is no longer available, and it should present some pertinent information:

The Noahide laws, also called the Brit Noah (Covenant of Noah) are the mitzvot (commandments) and halakhot (laws) that Judaism teaches that all non-Jews are morally bound to follow. They are listed in the Talmud and elaborated on by post-Talmudic authorities. Opinions differ on the reach of these commandments and the laws derived from them, but all contemporary authorities agree that there are seven commandments. These commandments and laws are based on exegesis of Genesis 2:16 and 9:4-6.

Origin

According to the Biblical narrative, the Deluge covered the whole world killing everyone except Noah and his family and the creatures of the ark. After the flood, God seals a convenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9):

• Food: "Also, flesh with the life -the blood- in it do not eat." (9:4)
• Murder: "I will also inquire about your blood, your life, from all animals, and from each human I will inquire about his brother's blood. Who sheds the blood of man, by man his blood will be shed, because in the image of God was man made."

The Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin 56a/b, quoting Tosefta Sanhedrin 9:4) states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments in Paradise. The remaining six are derived from a seeming superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16.

The seven laws

The seven laws are:

1. Shefichat damim - Do not murder.
2. Gezel - Do not steal/kidnap.
3. Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods/idols.
4. Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, sodomy, male homosexual sex acts and adultery)
5. Birkat Hashem - Do not blaspheme.
6. Dinim - Set up righteous and honest courts and apply fair justice in judging offenders and uphold the principles of the last five.
7. Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat anything of the body of an unslaughtered animal (given to Noah)

The Talmud also states: "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). Any person who lives according to these laws is known as "the righteous among the gentiles". Maimonides states that this refers to those who have acquired knowledge of God and act in accordance with the Noahide laws.

Definition of Noahides

According to rabbinic Judaism, as expressed in the Talmud, the Noahide Laws apply to all humanity through their descent from one paternal ancestor who in Hebrew tradition is called Noah (the head of the only family to survive during The Flood). In Judaism, B'nai Noach (Hebrew, "Descendants of Noah", "Children of Noah") refers to all Humans, but Noahide has come to refer to non-Jews who live in accord with the seven Noahide Laws; the term "observant Noahide" would be more precise but is infrequently used. A non-Jewish person of any ethnicity or religion is refered to as a bat (daughter)/ben (son) of Noah but usually an organization calling itself B'nai Noach would most likely be composed of gentiles believing that they are keeping the Noahide Laws. There is some controversy concerning whether or not a gentile may declare him/herself to be a keeper of the Noahide Laws or whether such a qualification can only be bestowed upon a gentile by a Beth Din (rabbinical court). Those adamant that B'nei Noah can only refer to noahides who believe they are keeping the Brit Noah take the stance that a Gentile can declare oneself to be a keeper of the Brit, while more orthodox parties feel rather than deciding for themselves Gentiles must submit themselves to the qualification stipulated in revelation but this consequently leads to the necessity for Torah Scholars (usually 3) to test identify and confer such status upon them.

Judaism holds that gentiles (non-Jews) are not obligated to follow the same halakha that Jews are obligated to follow. Though there is at least one well-documented case in which a Jewish state required all subjects to conform to Jewish beliefs and practices (in effect, to become Jewish), Rabbinic Judaism and its modern-day descendents discourage proselytization and interprets the historical data as evidence of the Jewish mission to "noahidify" gentiles. Noahide Laws may be considered the way to have a meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with a minimum threshold of divine law.

Maimonides states in his work Mishneh Torah (The laws of kings and their rulership 8:11) that a Geir Toshav who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a Righteous Gentile and has earned the afterlife. This follows a similar statement in the Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin 105b). However, according to Maimonides, a share in the World to Come is only earned if a person follows the Noahide laws specifically because they consider them to be of divine origin (through the Torah) and not if they simply consider them a good way to live (in which case they would simply be wise, a Nochri). Other authorities do not make this distinction.

Noahide law differs from the Roman law for gentiles (ius gentium) because the latter was an enforceable judicial policy. Rabbinic Judaism has never adjudicated any cases under Noahide law (per Novak, 1983:28ff.), although scholars disagree about whether the Noahide law is a functional part of Halakha (cp. Bleich).

The connection between Judaism and Noachidism is that Jews were Noachides prior to Mt. Sinai. At present, Rabbinic authority is the best support and teacher in the movement.

Originally Posted by ICA

And what is their view of the Moshiach?

The view is identical to Rabbinic Judaism.

Originally Posted by ICA

They do not believe Jesus was the Moshiach correct?

Correct. A number of the Noachides that I run into are former-Christians; so there is a connection as well.

Originally Posted by ICA

Sorry, but I have never heard of this movement until now. Thanks and Peace.
Steve

Not many have. But feel free to ask any time.

[InChristAlways]

Some "Christ"-ians [like me] do not follow the beliefs that apocolyptic "futurists"[Hal Lindsey] and most "messianics" do, though the Bible does appear to imply that the "Day of the Lord/New heaven and earth" happens After Moshiach comes to bring the New Covenant to Israel.[Note Isaiah 28 and Daniel's 70 weeks]...............
May I ask what the "Noachide movement" is and are they a different sect than Judaism is?

Originally Posted by ICA They do not believe Jesus was the Moshiach correct?

Correct. A number of the Noachides that I run into are former-Christians; so there is a connection as well.

Former Christians?? In your view, what made them fall away from Christ-ianity as I am really curious about that. I know of a former Lutheren that turned to Judaism and now runs the jewsforjudaism forum, his name is Drashi.

What are the Noachides view of the 70 weeks of Daniel and the Day of the Lord after the Moshiach comes? Do they view the temple as having to be built in the future [so the Lord can come to it] before that event happens? Thanks.
Steve

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant [#01285], In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts.

Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.

[chokmah]

Originally Posted by InChristAlways

Former Christians?? In your view, what made them fall away from Christ-ianity as I am really curious about that.

I can't speak for anyone else, but myself, because the Noachides come from a varied lot. Just recently, an agnostic acquaintance of mine really started investigating the Seven Laws of Noach.

My departure went like this (and I'll try to be short for brevity):

1) Lost belief in the trinity doctrine/dogma.
2) Lost belief in the deity of Jesus.
3) Lost belief in Messiahship of Jesus.
4) Lost belief in the "inspiration" of the Christian testament.

All four of the criteria above were lost beliefs, because of inconsistency (IMO) with the Tanakh. I could not make them harmonize with my questions and wonderings.

Originally Posted by ICA

I know of a former Lutheren that turned to Judaism and now runs the jewsforjudaism forum, Drashi.

Drashi's a cool cat.

Originally Posted by ICA

What are the Noachides view of the 70 weeks of Daniel and the Day of the Lord after the Moshiach comes? Do they view the temple as having to be built in the future [so the Lord can come to it] before that event happens? Thanks.
Steve

I should preface my answer with a disclaimer:

I, as a Noachide, realize that the Tanakh, from Exodus on, is a history book for Jews and the history of Judaism. There are many things therein that have nothing to do with me whatsoever. However, it is fun to think about certain things as they pertain to the future of the world. The Moshiach is one of those things. The Moshiach will have an impact on the world, and therefore, will have an impact on me (should I still be living when he comes).

Re: Daniel. I hold the view that the time line falls more in line with the situation involving Epiphanes and the Maccabees.

Re: The Temple. I hold the view that it will be rebuilt. As to a particular time frame whence Moshiach returns => I do not know.

I just believe that the criteria will be fulfilled, and then the person will be deemed - Moshiach. (which happens to be one major reason why I reject Jesus as the Messiah)

[InChristAlways]

A number of the Noachides that I run into are former-Christians; so there is a connection as well.

Originally Posted by ICA
I know of a former Lutheren that turned to Judaism and now runs the jewsforjudaism forum, Drashi.

Yes he is. I email him once in awhile for help on translating Daniel chapt 11 LOL.

Originally Posted by ICA What are the Noachides view of the 70 weeks of Daniel and the Day of the Lord after the Moshiach comes? Do they view the temple as having to be built in the future [so the Lord can come to it] before that event happens? Thanks.
Steve

Re: Daniel. I hold the view that the time line falls more in line with the situation involving Epiphanes and the Maccabees.

Re: The Temple. I hold the view that it will be rebuilt. As to a particular time frame whence Moshiach returns => I do not know.

I just believe that the criteria will be fulfilled, and then the person will be deemed - Moshiach. (which happens to be one major reason why I reject Jesus as the Messiah)

Thank you for the post. My view of Daniel 11 is quite different [translation is difficult also] than mainstream Christ-ianity's view, but that is a different topic.
Shalom and Peace to you in the Lord.
Steve

[chokmah]

Originally Posted by InChristAlways

[/i]Thanks you for the post. My view of Daniel 11 is quite different [translation is difficult also] than mainstream Christ-ianity's view but that is a different topic.
Peace to you in the Lord.
Steve

Are you discussing that any where that I could read your POV?

[InChristAlways]

Originally Posted by InChristAlways Thanks you for the post. My view of Daniel 11 is quite different [translation is difficult also] than mainstream Christ-ianity's view but that is a different topic.
Peace to you in the Lord.
Steve

Originally Posted by chokmah

Are you discussing that any where that I could read your POV?

I did start a topic awhile back here if you are interested. Drashi said my POV was "unique" LOL.

Drashi: Well, I have taken over the JewsforJudaism moderator position, so things are a bit more calmer now that I am the resident dictator! Yes, I did get married 1.5 years ago. And as for Daniel, it's the only text in the Tanach which is in Aramaic (looks like Hebrew, but the grammar is different)...........
BTW, some of your interpretation is certainly unique, I will give it that. While it is interesting, I don't subscribe to it, but then, you did admit that most people don't anyhow.

What is Daniel 10 and 11 about?