Moses was high on drugs: Israeli researcher

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

Originally Posted by wil

There are plenty of folks that have had spiritual experiences while high. I'd say proportionately folks that go in with a group or controlled situation with the intention of a spiritual experience utlizing entheogens are more likely to have an experience that changes their life than those who do so simply by prayer, meditation, scripture, reading and classes.

So God responds better to ethogens than to endeavour? Sorry Wil, but I think such comments show how prayer, meditation, scripture, reading and classes (which are not equivalent practices) are completely misunderstood ...

+++

Life changing does not necessarily equate 'spiritual' and therein lies the problem people use the term with no real idea of what they're talking about ... or rather 'spiritual' has become so meaningless it covers anything that you can't spread on bread.

An altered psychological state is not a spiritual state, it's just an altered psychological state ... again what's the difference between psychological, psychic and spiritual?

I see it all as psychological.

I am also aware of those I know of, and have known personally, who have been totally destroyed by the same order of experience ... Sid Barrett (Pink Floyd) Peter Green (Fleetwood Mac) ...

Again, I know people who have had similar life-altering experiences in near-fatal excursions into drugs, alcohol and in one instance the motor car ... but they would not claim it spiritual, simply an altered viewpoint ... and I have had one memorable OOB experience on my motorbike that changed my whole approach to riding ...

In the West it seems anything that makes one feel good is immediately qualified as 'spiritual' — it just ain't the case.

Originally Posted by wil

One can go the monastary route to separate oneself for the ego driven material life, it doesn't always work, plenty of egos in the monastary.

Sure are, that's why I am full of admiration for the monastic. I couldn't do it. I am also aware of the immeasurable benefits accorded to humanity of those who make the endeavour.

Originally Posted by wil

But if one is simply going to classes, attending services, and expects some ground breaking eureka without devoting extensive time to devotions, meditations, contemplations in order to break down the crap

Indeed ... and if you really think that dropping a tab is all it takes, to work any meaningful change ... then it doesn't say much for the quality of human life, does it ... ?

Originally Posted by wil

Now I'm not saying all drug use is a religious experience.

Good.

Originally Posted by wil

However in a few hours, in a day, there are ways to leave this reality and experience another, call it what you will, but don't discount it as nothing, not unless you wish others to discount your beliefs as nothing.

Nonsense. The product of such a process is a fantasy, not a reality.

Any value is subsequent, in how the fantasist interprets the experience ... and the more 'meaningful', the more the fantasy becomes one's personal reality ... but this is psychological and indeed, for some, psychic ... but it's all founded on a fantasy.

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Nonsense. The product of such a process is a fantasy, not a reality.

Any value is subsequent, in how the fantasist interprets the experience ... and the more 'meaningful', the more the fantasy becomes one's personal reality ... but this is psychological and indeed, for some, psychic ... but it's all founded on a fantasy.

Thomas

But Ezekial and Revelation and Jacob wrestling with an angel, none of those fantasy?

I've run into plenty of folks who claim spiritual experiences who I'd like to believe but my cynic holds their words with a grain of salt.

I just don't discount those who use a substance to lessen the impact of the material world to access spiritual understanding. I don't take all their experiences at face value either. But I do listen, to both.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by wil

But Ezekial and Revelation and Jacob wrestling with an angel, none of those fantasy?

Well that depends on what you choose to believe, doesn't it?

If you're not 'of the Book' then you can assume them to be anything you like — a trip, a delusion, a mania ... But a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim would hold they are not fantasies, but the narrative of a mystical vision.

Even for those not of the book, the spiritual insight is luminous.

As a rule of thumb, person fantasy rarely provides a sustainable vision that transcends the wisdom of the world, it's romance, rather than reason ...

Originally Posted by wil

I've run into plenty of folks who claim spiritual experiences who I'd like to believe but my cynic holds their words with a grain of salt.

Based on your own parameters, that's probably a wise move.

Originally Posted by wil

I just don't discount those who use a substance to lessen the impact of the material world to access spiritual understanding. I don't take all their experiences at face value either. But I do listen, to both.

But do you discriminate? It seems not.

The substance lessens the contact with every world, Wil, that's the point, the illusionary self drifts into even deeper illusion ... whereas the 'spiritual disciplines' — or asceticism generally — actually challenges the illusions and fantasies of the self and by so doing offers the possibility of an insight or even an experience of the real.

The fallacy is assuming the induced vision is an alternative reality, it's not, it's a very strong fantasy.

That it may change someone's life is not disputed, but it's that person's response to the fantasy, not the fantasy ... and God does not communicate in fantasy — I can direct you to Orthodox sites that draw the distinction between fantasy and reality, if you like.

Thomas

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Thomas

The substance lessens the contact with every world, Wil, that's the point, the illusionary self drifts into even deeper illusion ... whereas the 'spiritual disciplines' — or asceticism generally — actually challenges the illusions and fantasies of the self and by so doing offers the possibility of an insight or even an experience of the real.

however, it is undeniable that mystical and ascetic routes can offer equally chimeric detours and increase the possibility for heretical error or at any rate controversy - that is why the kabbalists stress the importance of a spiritual guide. history is full of examples from those who engaged in these disciplines without the appropriate safeguards, with tragic results; everything from the fate of three of the four who ascended to PaRDe"S, the child who was consumed by fire when studying the ma'aseh merqabah, the trials of abulafia, to say nothing of shabbetai tzvi. and it's not just us - what about that unfortunate sufi (ibn hallaj?) who was executed for yelling "i am the Truth!"?

b'shalom

bananabrain

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

however, it is undeniable that mystical and ascetic routes can offer equally chimeric detours and increase the possibility for heretical error or at any rate controversy - that is why the kabbalists stress the importance of a spiritual guide. history is full of examples from those who engaged in these disciplines without the appropriate safeguards, with tragic results; everything from the fate of three of the four who ascended to PaRDe"S, the child who was consumed by fire when studying the ma'aseh merqabah, the trials of abulafia, to say nothing of shabbetai tzvi. and it's not just us - what about that unfortunate sufi (ibn hallaj?) who was executed for yelling "i am the Truth!"?

b'shalom

bananabrain

It makes sense that a mystic would have to be firmly grounded in order to keep from doing insane things. What's the best grounding agent? I would say materialism is not the best grounding agent.

I like this Bertrand Russel quote, but would substitute 'compassion' for 'pity.'

Three passions have governed my life:
The longings for love, the search for knowledge,
And unbearable pity for the suffering of [humankind].
Love brings ecstasy and relieves loneliness.
In the union of love I have seen
In a mystic miniature the prefiguring vision
Of the heavens that saints and poets have imagined.
With equal passion I have sought knowledge.
I have wished to understand the hearts of [people].
I have wished to know why the stars shine.
Love and knowledge led upwards to the heavens,
But always pity brought me back to earth;
Cries of pain reverberated in my heart
Of children in famine, of victims tortured
And of old people left helpless.
I long to alleviate the evil, but I cannot,
And I too suffer.

This has been my life; I found it worth living.


~Bertrand Russel

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Three passions have governed my life:

The longings for love, the search for knowledge,

And unbearable pity for the suffering of [humankind].

Love brings ecstasy and relieves loneliness.

In the union of love I have seen

In a mystic miniature the prefiguring vision

Of the heavens that saints and poets have imagined.

With equal passion I have sought knowledge.

I have wished to understand the hearts of [people].

I have wished to know why the stars shine.

Love and knowledge led upwards to the heavens,

But always pity brought me back to earth;

Cries of pain reverberated in my heart

Of children in famine, of victims tortured

And of old people left helpless.

I long to alleviate the evil, but I cannot,

And I too suffer.

This has been my life; I found it worth living.

~Bertrand Russel

Words of a stoner... lol... And he's right :P

[pohaikawahine]

actually in my view the whole thread was answered in the first post Moses was "high on Mount Sinai" .... when one moves the spiralling energy in the body to the top of the head (or the top of the mountain) through meditative prayer, meditation, chanting, and a myriad of others ways (none requiring drugs of any sort except those that naturally occur within the brain itself), it is possible to have revelations and this is the ultimate merging of heaven and earth .... so to move to the top of the mountain would be equavalent to being "high on Mount Sinai" ....

some plants known to the shaman can go directly to the brain and cause the release of certain chemicals (such as ayahuasca which is also called the spirit vine or ladder to the Milky Way, vine of the soul - it spirals and twists like a rope, as do many vines) but these are not needed and the same experience can be achieved without them just through meditation or chanting or even spinning) ....

The Song of Songs (also known as the Song of Solomon) tells you how to get the same place - how to find your way to the garden, how to remove the veils of meaning and look within .... how to become "high on Mount Sinai" ....

just a quick thought to share as I pass through .... he hawai'i au, poh