Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of Hamas leader, becomes Christian

[farhan]

The question of lying has comeup before. can be found here

[InFlux]

Paradise for some evil-doers
(Luke 23:43) and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Do you mean that people of faith shouldnt fight (even if they are subject to slavery, attack and exploitation), and that those who fight are of no faith??!! How come??!!

Yes, I have shown love to those who have attacked me and to those whom I have attacked..

If you have faith(trust) in love and in peace.... Then it would be "false promotion...."

Violence, killing, agression, hate... They have no part in Love or peace.

Oh I am a vegan!!! But... I do occasionally like to eat fish..... Or some lamb chops from time to time... Well... Then you are not a vegan...

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Who said ANYTHING about US government? This is Islamic scripture that specifically states the muslim will LIE to the un-believer in order to protect the Muslim heart. And Dialogue can not deny that passage in the Q'uran, and neither can you.

Which passage is that?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Which passage is that?

The passages are as follows:

"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." Sura 16:106

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Sura 3:28


According to this verse a Muslim can pretend to befriend infidels (in violation of the teachings of Islam) and display adherence with their unbelief to prevent them from harming him.
Under the concept of Takeyya and short of killing another human being, if under the threat of force, it is legitimate for Muslims to act contrary to their faith. The following actions are acceptable:

• Drink wine, abandon prayers, and skip fasting during Ramadan.
• Renounce belief in Allah.
• Kneel in homage to a deity other than Allah.
• Utter insincere oaths.

Sura 16:106 - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Sura 3:28 - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."
Sura 40:28- A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.
Sura 2:225 - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"
Sura 66:22- "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"
Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true, such as Mohammad deceiving the Meccans to gain access to the city, in order to overtake it. Sura 9:3

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

I'm not saying that following one's faith is wrong, but I know I wouldn't be able to tell truth from falshood, spoken by one who can lie by God, to me, because I am not a believer in Islam.

v/r

Q

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

The eposide you have stated with, Quahom1, is quite interesting. Also, the interpertation is more interesting.

So now we may draw some conclusions:

1- Since Jesus (pbuh) praised that soldier, then "love your enemies" may have another meaning.It may be similar to this hadith wherein the prophet Muhamed (pbuh) said:"Assist your brother, whether he be an oppressor or an oppressed. 'But how shall we do it when someone is an oppressor?' Muhammad said, 'Assisting an oppressor is by forbidding and withholding that person from oppression.This is how you help him”. Narrated by Anas.

2- Mosab converted to Christianity because he sees that "love your enemies" is the solution to the Palestinian/ Israeli struggle. Now, with what you have said, Quahom1, we learn that conflict and war are matters of life, and Christians have to get to the field to defend their rights. And that's their right, of course. So, Christianity praise those who fight for their lands, and dignity. And that's logic and reasonable.

3- This fact may lead us to another important question:" since Christianity supports soldiers, and fighters, and since those soldiers are Christians, what is about the "HOW" to fight in the Christian perspective? What are "to do" or "not to do" in conflicts and wars according to Christianity?

I am still waiting for your reply,Quahom1

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

I am still waiting for your reply,Quahom1

didn't see the post Dialogue. Sorry. I'm going to read it and consider my responses...

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

The eposide you have stated with, Quahom1, is quite interesting. Also, the interpertation is more interesting.

So now we may draw some conclusions:

1- Since Jesus (pbuh) praised that soldier, then "love your enemies" may have another meaning.It may be similar to this hadith wherein the prophet Muhamed (pbuh) said:"Assist your brother, whether he be an oppressor or an oppressed. 'But how shall we do it when someone is an oppressor?' Muhammad said, 'Assisting an oppressor is by forbidding and withholding that person from oppression.This is how you help him”. Narrated by Anas.

2- Mosab converted to Christianity because he sees that "love your enemies" is the solution to the Palestinian/ Israeli struggle. Now, with what you have said, Quahom1, we learn that conflict and war are matters of life, and Christians have to get to the field to defend their rights. And that's their right, of course. So, Christianity praise those who fight for their lands, and dignity. And that's logic and reasonable.

3- This fact may lead us to another important question:" since Christianity supports soldiers, and fighters, and since those soldiers are Christians, what is about the "HOW" to fight in the Christian perspective? What are "to do" or "not to do" in conflicts and wars according to Christianity?

1. If you are regarding Jesus helping the centurian as a way of keeping him from becoming frustrated and opressive in order to try and get his way, the validity of the statement Mohammad made, is logical. However, consideration must be given to the fact that the centurian approached Jesus not as a soldier per se, but as a man, who was humble in his knowledge of who he was, standing before Jesus. The centurian felt unworthy before the Son of God, yet decided still to ask for Jesus' help. There was no guile or arrogance in his heart. He didn't care that he was a foriegner, asking a Jewish man for help. He was a man, asking the Lord for help. He also had no doubt that Jesus could help him, but I suspect there was a part of him concerned about whether Jesus "would" help him. Yet he asked anyway, and his petition was granted.

2. Mosab's reasons to convert to Christianity are not fully known by anyone but Mosab and God. However, part of his reasoning is that the concept of "Love your enemies" (e.g. look past the anger and frustration and pain, and see the value of the "enemies" themselves as worthy human beings, and treat them as such), strongly appealed to Mosab. Occam's razor...("All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.").

Standing up for one's dignity, should be the fight of every man, not just Christians, or Americans. That is a choice and action worthy of praise.

3. Christianity supports all people of all walks of life Dialogue, even and especially non-Christians. As far as "how" to fight, well the first rule is this:

"He who fights monsters should look into it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the Abyss, the Abyss also gazes into you." (Neitzsche, I believe).

For a Christian to fight, the cause to fight must be just, and the fight itself must be justly conducted. What determines the cause to be just can get very complex, however there are core rules that must be in place.

a. The war is conducted by a legitimate civil authority
b. The war is based on a just cause
c. The war is waged with the right intention
d. The war is undertaken only as a last resort
e. The war is fought on the basis of a reasonable chance of success
f. The war has an establishment of a superior peace as its goal
g. The war is waged with proper discrimination between combatants and non-combatants.

It get's real complicated after that, because "man" is complicated.

Your turn...

v/r

Q

[I, Brian]

Hm, sounds like a new thread idea.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Hm, sounds like a new thread idea.

Dialogue...I think someone just turned up the "heat" on that kettle of fish I'm sitting in...lol

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

1. If you are regarding Jesus helping the centurian as a way of keeping him from becoming frustrated and opressive in order to try and get his way, the validity of the statement Mohammad made, is logical. However, consideration must be given to the fact that the centurian approached Jesus not as a soldier per se, but as a man, who was humble in his knowledge of who he was, standing before Jesus. The centurian felt unworthy before the Son of God, yet decided still to ask for Jesus' help. There was no guile or arrogance in his heart. He didn't care that he was a foriegner, asking a Jewish man for help. He was a man, asking the Lord for help. He also had no doubt that Jesus could help him, but I suspect there was a part of him concerned about whether Jesus "would" help him. Yet he asked anyway, and his petition was granted.

i find this scenario very interesting considering that romans were occupying jerusalem, and this roman soldier had power over other soldiers and allegiance to caesar, we find humbling himself before Jesus, and asking Him for help on a spiritual level because he recognized His authority beyond this world.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

i find this scenario very interesting considering that romans were occupying jerusalem, and this roman soldier had power over other soldiers and allegiance to caesar, we find humbling himself before Jesus, and asking Him for help on a spiritual level because he recognized His authority beyond this world.

Blaze, he wasn't asking for help on a spiritual level (he knew Jesus as Lord God), he was petitioning Jesus for physical help for one he loved and cared for, as well as confirmation that he (the centurian), could approach the Lord, and be received well. He wanted to know from God, that he and his, mattered to God...

The centurian's faith was never in question...the strength of that faith however, amazed even Jesus, as it came from an outsider.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Blaze, he wasn't asking for help on a spiritual level (he knew Jesus as Lord God), he was petitioning Jesus for physical help for one he loved and cared for, as well as confirmation that he (the centurian), could approach the Lord, and be received well. He wanted to know from God, that he and his, mattered to God...

The centurian's faith was never in question...the strength of that faith however, amazed even Jesus, as it came from an outsider.

Which brings the thread right back to Mosab (the OP). Mosab is the centurian, asking Jesus for help, in healing that which he loves most. The only "person" he has found, that stated could and would help if asked, and Mosab sounds like he has taken a "leap of faith", for that which he loves most... A humble, but righteous request, before Jesus, I should think.

v/r

Q

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Blaze, he wasn't asking for help on a spiritual level (he knew Jesus as Lord God), he was petitioning Jesus for physical help for one he loved and cared for, as well as confirmation that he (the centurian), could approach the Lord, and be received well. He wanted to know from God, that he and his, mattered to God...

The centurian's faith was never in question...the strength of that faith however, amazed even Jesus, as it came from an outsider.

I understand what you are saying; however, to know Jesus is Lord God is thru the Spirit, and although the healing is physical, it is thru the power of the Spirit, so it is spiritual.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

I understand what you are saying; however, to know Jesus is Lord God is thru the Spirit, and although the healing is physical, it is thru the power of the Spirit, so it is spiritual.

Ok, that makes perfect sense.