More about Hell - Page 2

Dondi · 04-25-2007, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

If this Earth based creature some how floats off to some magicial spiritual realm.... Wouldn't god have to change you? Tinker with you... Sure Dondi you believe in god but you sure as hell ain't no saint... You have flaws... You have faults... Who doesn't right? Wouldn't god need to tinker with you? to make you "perfect"?

Do you ever read what I post? We are in agreement. Why are you trying to turn things around that don't need turning?

17th Angel · 04-25-2007, 05:36 PM

That is my thing though... You ain't perfect, but are a beliver in a god.... I ain't perfect, and not really caring if there is a god.... I live my life and enjoy my life.... So... You'd go to heaven/paradise earth whatever and be changed.... But I wouldn't.... So I dunno... That confuses me.

cyberpi · 04-25-2007, 05:56 PM

So figuratively a person can hold a gun against someone to demand more power or control. If they don't have the same or more power and control over themselves and everyone, then they think they have been wronged. Kind of like a child in a toy store who wants a toy and if the parents won't buy it for him/her... then the tantrum (gun) goes off. There will be hell. The parents are seen as terrorist evil things that manipulate and control, so the child has got to let everyone know by throwing a tantrum. The child bites the hands that have given to it, or at least gives everyone an ear full of it.

You don't know what is on the other side of the door of death. All that you have got is a book that says something about it. It is like a desired toy presented in a magazine that sounds good... maybe more power, control, some new bells and whistles to play with that you've never seen before. You don't know what the toy is, but you know that you presently don't have it and you will make your own hell as a result of it.

What is worse is, death will arrive. EVERYTHING in this universe dies including the universe itself... the sun will die, the earth will die, every living thing on the planet is going to die. Every building standing, thing built, or organism growing is in constant decay and it is all going to be completely destroyed some day. You are not alone in experiencing death in this universe... absolutely EVERYTHING is going to die someday. Nothing will survive.

This world is like a VCR tape on record where the Life left in it is the blank tape, and that blank tape is being used up daily. So while on the tape, a person figuratively points a gun to the sky and says, "Give me more tape dad". All power and control struggles are over that tape. Imagine a parent recording his children on tape and one of them points a gun at him and says, "Point the camera here dad... I demand more tape without condition". Or maybe a person goes another way with it and decides that he doesn't need this world, saying, "See if I will perform for you dad". But he does need the tape of life because that is all that he knows and he does not know what else there is besides it.

lunamoth · 04-25-2007, 08:51 PM

I think this thread and OP is inappropriate for this forum.

I'm recommending that it be reviewed by the staff...but I'm not going to close it now as I see it has lead to some interesting discussion.

Dondi · 04-25-2007, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

That is my thing though... You ain't perfect, but are a beliver in a god.... I ain't perfect, and not really caring if there is a god.... I live my life and enjoy my life.... So... You'd go to heaven/paradise earth whatever and be changed.... But I wouldn't.... So I dunno... That confuses me.

I'm looking for things to get better, starting here and now. Whatever I learn, whatever I experience, whatever improvements that can be made in a relationship with God, whatever improvements I can make with relationships with others, it is my hope that I'll take that which is good with me and continue on. I see value in hoping for positive change, in growing, in amending my mistakes, perhaps making in my own small way this world a bit better place. I live my life and enjoy it also, in many ways more than the life I was leading. What's so confusing about that?

Dondi · 04-25-2007, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think this thread and OP is inappropriate for this forum.

I'm recommending that it be reviewed by the staff...but I'm not going to close it now as I see it has lead to some interesting discussion.

I see no reason to close it, IMO. The OP is an issue that is of genuine concern. People have differing opinions about who Jesus is that ought to be addressed. I'm hoping to dispel the idea of a vindictive God that is bent on tossing people arbitrarily into the abyss. The current discussion between 17th and myself is rather stimulating. There is emotion to be sure, but I don't see it as a personal attack at this junction. Stuffed under all the rhetoric is someone who is admittedly confused about the issue.

shadowman · 04-25-2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

How do you know that hell isn't a natural default for people who do not know God? If God is light, warmth, joy, peace, love, where in His presence is no pain, no sorrow, no sin, no more tears, then Hell would be the direct opposite: outer darkness, pain, sorrow, wailing and gnashing of teeth, despair, unrest, hate. God is the sustainer of life, being Creator of it, and so only in His presence will we be able to find life. God is not out to toss people like fodder in the wastebasket of hell, rather it is a result of people not hanging on to the essential component of life, namely His Spirit. you equate Hell as a place, but I tend to view it as a life (or rather, living death) of the absence of God, who is able to resurrect us into incorruptable bodies and redeemed souls. But we still have to make that choice, the decision to come to Him is still ours.

that still doens tsound like a place a t all anyone should have to end up in, under any crazy circumstances

shadowman · 04-25-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

SM, it seems like you are begging for attention more loudly now. What do you want?

Jesus is a person in a book. It is 2000 year old history. Are you perhaps projecting on a book something that you experienced with people who call themselves Christian today?

If you are looking for advice, I suggest looking at personal relationships. Ask yourself: Are you honest with people and yourself? Have you left things unconfessed? Are you faithful to anyone or do you have faith in anyone? Who or what do you love? People to forgive? Are you patient? Have you experienced marriage? Have children?

The eternal damnation in the gospels is eternal 'judgment'. Perhaps a way to be in eternal judgment is to not hear judgment and to refute ways to learn and change to be better. Do you seriously consider yourself perfected and unable to learn anything new from God? Your words here sound passive aggressive but if you are being a trickster then I think you are just being dishonest. My opinion of course but I would seek perfection of personal relationships and ask God for guidance along the way.

I have tons of room for improvement and I am working on it. I love my family and friends and I try and love everyone too.

Am I taking the message of this 2000 year old book the wrong way? Those were ancient days Im sure they were ok living in paralysing fear of a monster god.

shadowman · 04-25-2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

That is my thing though... You ain't perfect, but are a beliver in a god.... I ain't perfect, and not really caring if there is a god.... I live my life and enjoy my life.... So... You'd go to heaven/paradise earth whatever and be changed.... But I wouldn't.... So I dunno... That confuses me.

It confuses me too that there is a god that can help people but he sets up terms and conditions for his help, it just sounds dishonest. I labeled it passive aggressive in my original post. ITs not perfect and sweet, but its under a rouge of being poerfect and sweet.

Dondi · 04-25-2007, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

that still doens tsound like a place a t all anyone should have to end up in, under any crazy circumstances

Not speaking for God, but I'd think He would feel the same way. The scriptures do indicate that Hell was made for the Devil and his angels, for which there is no redemptive process, not for man. But if you aren't for God, where does that leave you? With others that aren't for God, and that wouldn't be heaven either.

shadowman · 04-25-2007, 09:13 PM

so in order to be for god I have to think its ok that if people dont get it they deserve punishment? What if I am for human improvement and love and peace? I am for all of that. Im not for condeming all humans to hell. thats what god does

shadowman · 04-25-2007, 09:18 PM

if a person doesnt wqant to believe in god why does that make this perfect loving being so angry? if he wants to help, really, he could help anyway. after death, remove the wool from the persons eyes. or maybe he could show up tangibly and honestly before death and get all the people in the world to realize who he is and what he wants.

the game he is playing ensures one thing.

that some people will end up in hell

this is still not good or justifyable.

he needs a new game

Dondi · 04-25-2007, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

so in order to be for god I have to think its ok that if people dont get it they deserve punishment? What if I am for human improvement and love and peace? I am for all of that.

Good, because that is what God is looking for.

Quote:

Im not for condeming all humans to hell. thats what god does

You are still thinking on linear terms, thinking it is all about hell. But I tell you that it is all about the human condition. Try to be absolutely good for one week. Go ahead, try it. Bet you fail, if you are honest. The standard for good is there as an ideal, something to shoot for. Of course we will fail if we don't have His Good in us. And even if we are relying on His Spirit, as long as we are in imperfect flesh, we will be tempted. His Spirit is available to guide us and give us strength and if we learn from Him. We will see ourselves in sin less and less. But that is what Grace is for: to learn how to love without condemnation. Salvations is salvation for our souls. But if you don't see yourself as sick, you won't seek a doctor. Some patients die because they are in denial about their condition and end up seeking help way too late.

LeoSalinas22 · 04-25-2007, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

oh, how quaint. another threat.

"listen (punk) this is the best thing you are ever gonna get"

this god of yours is not friendly

Job 40 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

shadowman · 04-25-2007, 09:50 PM

I lvoe the book of job