morality within evolution

[juantoo3]

A general thought as this develops, I wonder where and how "spirit" figures into the equation?

Love, morality, spirit. These so far seem to me the prevailing similarities across most religions, in form if not in function.

[alexa]

Hi Juan,

You know, you left me the funny part ? Thanks a lot !

I have just started with the pagan religions and you won't belive it, but I have found connections with the nature. There are a lot of infos, so I hope I can do a proper selection of the best one.

See you soon,

Alexa

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Originally Posted by alexa

You know, you left me the funny part ? Thanks a lot !

I have just started with the pagan religions and you won't belive it, but I have found connections with the nature. There are a lot of infos, so I hope I can do a proper selection of the best one.

Well, it wasn't intentional...

If you would like, I will help. I was kinda hoping for some input from around here in this category, but like I said, they often keep a distance to themselves. I don't have any problem with this, but it does make understanding a bit difficult.

Did you notice the part I put in italics under the general section of my post, concerning modern spiritualism? In my experience, not all are like that, but some are.

[alexa]

Namaste Vajradhara,

Thank you for your patience to explain us the Buddhist Precepts. It will take me some time to assimilate all of them as everything is new for me.

Hello again Juan,

Don't worry. You are not the only one who doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. My boss keeps reminding me from time to time.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

A general thought as this develops, I wonder where and how "spirit" figures into the equation?

I think this will appear in my part of the researche. Not right away, as I have to go step by step with the pagan religions. I have no intention to say I know everything about it. I'm not a Wicca so I can give as information only what I could find available on : paganwiccan.about.com. Those who know more about it and are ready to participate, please feel free to add or correct me as you wish.

Besides Wicca, there are a lot of other pagan religions. They have common things with Wicca, but they are all unique and separate religions I'm talking about : Asatru, Celtic, Druidry, Discordian, Hellenismos, Kemetic, Santeria, Satanism and mixing religions.

The pagan religions are polytheistic (with many Gods and Goddesses) and I'll write only about those related to nature. The topic began with it !

Wicca is a modern day religion based on pre-Christian religions practices and it was founded by Gerard Gardner in the early '50's. It's an Earth centered religion and celebrates the cycles and the seasons. The Wiccan don't necessary worship Earth, but it is important in their religion.They have a lot of rituals of the Moon (the Dark Moon, Drawing down the Moon, the Full Moon, the New Moon, the Lunar Eclipse). Some rituals are done solitary and others in family.
The Dark Moon is a simple ritual to banish the negative things from the life.
The 'charge' of the Goddess is felt for the first time by novice witches on their first Moon. This is the ritual of Drawing down the Moon.
In the New Moon the Sun and the Moon are in conjunction. The entire Moon appears dark.
In the Full Moon, the Moon and the Sun are in Opposite. The entire Moon is lit.
The Lunar Eclipse ritual combines the power of the Full and the New Moon at once. Any spell perfomed this night needs to be done carefully.

Essentially, all magick can be broken down into two types : drawing and banishing. During the waxing moon cycle (the period between the New Moon and the Full Moon) the work of a Wicca should be concentrated on drawing what he/she wants toward him/her (like health when there is illness around). During the waning Moon (the period between the Full Moon and the New Moon) the work is concentrated towards banishing what is not wished in life (like poverty).
The Full Moon covers 3 days and this is the time for action, for harvesting the fruits of the labor, for giving thanks.
The Dark Moon covers 3 days, too and this is the time of introspection, of looking within and meditationg on the shadow self.

Asatru (Norse Healthenism) is a tradition on old Norse belifs and it is significally different from basic Wicca. I would like to mention one of its specific Goddess. Skadi. Scandinavia was named after her and the words like shadow, skullduggery and shade came from her name,too. The life values can be given as the Nine Noble Virtues : courage, truth, honor, fidelity, discipline, hospitality, industriousness, self-reliance and perseverence. The family is greatly valued and honored. They reject any form of discrimination based on ethnicity, gender, language, nationality, race, sexual orientation or 'other devisive criteria'. ( Please consider the values as it were initially. I don't want to discuss the connection with the nazi).

Druidry. The druids were the pristhood of the ancient Celts and their beliefs are still followed today. They filled the roles of judge, doctor, deviner, mage, mystic and clerical scholar. They were capable of many magical powers such as divination and prophecy, control of the weather, healing, levitation and shape changing themselves into the forms of animals. Their education was so rigourous that at the end of it they were virtually walking encyclopedias. (sic, they didn't need the net ! like me)
A druid's connection to nature is the source of all his power, both in society and in magic. By understanding that connection, a druid's being is joined with nature and so he becomes aware of all that is known to nature, which is all things. A Druid is a kind of nature mystic.

As it's late I have to say Good bye now.

Please let me know if you are interested to find more.

Regards,

Alexa

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Wow! You've been a busy lady!

I found some stuff too, like what you did only different, and I haven't gone through it yet (I don't want to put it all up, it would take far too much room). I like the stuff you found about the moon and some of the other things you mentioned. I didn't see that in what I was looking for.

On the subject of morality, it seems pagans can't make up their minds, whether they do or don't have a moral code. Some point to the rede and say it is a basic moral code, like what I said about the golden rule. Others modify the rede to suit their personal preferences. Still others steadfastly insist paganism has absolutely no moral code whatsoever. Confusing. No mean spirit intended, but I really think some of them don't really know what they are talking about. Or if they do, they sure aren't letting others in on what they think they know. Some of the sites I visited were very paranoid, more so than any other religious sites I have visited. It makes me wonder...if there is nothing to hide, why hide? Why so scared to share?

I found something by a secular humanist that seemed interesting too. He was trying to claim monotheistic religious morality (Judaism, from there Christianity and Islam) came from paganism. This gets really confusing if pagans do not have a moral code...

It is really late and I have a lot to do tomorrow. I hope I can find the time to put something together out of what I found. Until then, kind regards.

[alexa]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

It makes me wonder...if there is nothing to hide, why hide? Why so scared to share?

You forget one thing Juan. They were many of them burned or hunged for sorcelerie. It's a good reason to be scared.

Most of them work in solitary and find thier own "recepies". Few of them are in a covent and as I have read it's not very easy to find one. If they don't trust you, you are not allowed to participate. So, when they are able to manage alone, in my opinion, they do not feel the need to share.

I have chosen to speak about the Moon as it's like a clock for them. You are right, the nature has nothing with the morality. It's more like a guide to their activities.

Sorry, I have to go now.

Regards,

alexa

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Alexa!

Lookee what I found!

Wicca:
Morality
Wiccan morality is ruled according to the Wiccan Rede, which (in part) states "An it harm none, do what ye will." ("An" is an archaic word meaning "if."). Others follow the slightly adapted Rede of "An it harm none do what ye will; if harm it does, do what ye must" This very simple code is central to the understanding that personal responsibility, rather than a religious authority, is where moral structure resides.
Many Wiccans also promote the Law of Threefold Return, or the idea that anything that one does may be returned to them threefold. In other words, good deeds are magnified back to the doer, but so are ill deeds.
Some Wiccans also follow, or at least consider, a set of 161 laws often referred to as Lady Sheba's Laws. Some find these rules to be outdated and counterproductive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

(I looked for Lady Sheba's 161 laws and hit several stone walls. Most were selling books. -jt3)
---------------

What is Wicca?
Wicca is a neoPagan nature-revering religion dating back to roughly fifty years ago, give or take.
It's a nature-based religion - meaning that the holidays, deities, and belief structures are ideally centered around a holistic and nature-based point of view.

http://www.ghostdragon.net/index.php.../faq#christian

(Which returns me to my original question, is it "right" to look to nature for moral guidance, especially when nature is a very cruel mistress and operates in what civil humans would see as an anti-moral manner. I am not casting judgement, I am asking a sincere question. -jt3)
--------------

For these reasons, because subjective consensus morality is able to change, depends on the many rather than the few, and must have some form of reason as its basis, I believe it is most appropriate for neo-Paganism. The specific type of morality (rather than the general system of morality) which most Pagans adhere to is a variation on the Wiccan Rede - "an it harm none, do as ye will." This moral statement has an underlying reason behind it - enlightened self- interest. We obey this type of morality because it is related to ourselves - we don't do harm because we wish no harm to come to us. This is subjective consensus morality in that it is the morality of Paganism because the majority of Pagans believe it is moral. As we have no sacred scripture then there is always the possibility that this statement of ethics could change at some time in the future should the majority of Pagans decide on another type of ethics. Thus subjective consensus morality is not only the practical system by which democracy determines its morality, but also the most applicable system for Paganism.

http://www.witchvox.com/words/words_..._morality.html

(This webpage is actually a very good discussion of the role of morality in neo-paganism. -jt3)
-----------------

Interview by Paul O'Donnell
Roman Emperor Constantine was a hot topic a few years ago, as historians took a look at his sometimes brutal imposition of Christianity on his realm. Now Jonathan Kirsch, a Los Angeles lawyer and self-taught biblical scholar, has written "God Against the Gods," about Constantine's successor Julian, who died before he could undo Constantine's work. Had Julian lived, Kirsch says, paganism might have shown us a safer, freer road to Western civilization. We interviewed Kirsch recently about his book.
You tell the story of the Roman Emperor Julian, known as Julian the Apostate for his attempt to roll back his predecessor Constantine's effort to Christianize the empire. What's fascinating is that he was a pagan, but was punctiliously moral. It's not entirely clear his empire would have been a less Christian place in that sense.
It’s a very important assumption that I make that there was a morality in the world of late classical paganism that was not greatly different from Jewish and Christian morality.
Is that because Jewish and Christian morality and pagan morality have a common source? Or does society organize itself along the same lines no matter what the idea of the divine may be?
I’d have to come down on the side of those who see morality as a human characteristic common to many cultures, rather than one that flows from ethical monotheism. The best argument I can make is that by the period of the Common Era, wherein Christian and Judaism are contending with the other religions in Rome, there is a great commonality of belief about what a decent life consists of. We’re taught to regard paganism as something dissolute and promiscuous and superstitious and crude and cruel, and it was not necessarily any of those things. Julian insisted on seeing a resemblance between paganism and Judaism. He says, “We’re alike in all of our religious practices, except you worship one God and we worship many gods. In all other ways we’re alike.” Certainly, Julian was not just a proper person, but almost a puritanical person.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/146/story_14661.html
(Excellent article! It also reminds me that atheists are moral people too, or so I hear over and over. So, if morality exists in a religious vacuum, it is not correct to imply that morality is a construct of religion, specifically monotheistic religion. -jt3)
--------------
(The following article came to the exact opposite conclusion! -jt3)

On Morality: A Wiccan Viewpoint
One of the greatest contributions that Christianity and Judaism have imparted on our society is the institution of morality. Previous religions, especially those of Greece and Rome, placed little importance on the teaching of morality. This was left to the philosophers who in turn described their own moral beliefs and systems to their students, creating a moral code which was as diverse and disorganized as there were philosophers to listen to. It is difficult to imagine living in a society in which there is no absolute right and wrong . . . or is it?

The "problem" was presented to me that Wicca does not teach morality. We abide by no ten commandments, and this is true. The interesting thing, however, is that for the most part, the Ten Commandments could have been summed up in one phrase: `Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You'. This classic rule of Christianity in truth is not so far from the Wiccan rule of `An it harm none, do what ye will'. The two are, of course, not synonymous. The Rede does not prohibit the worship of any gods or goddesses, and the rede does not set down firm guidelines for moral behavior. I have repeatedly been asked, "What kind of religion does not teach morality?"
In replying to this question, the Wiccan needs to remember a few things. The first is that Wicca is a revival of the pagan religions of old, in which morality was NOT taught to begin with.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amet.../morality.html
----------------
(And to really confuse matters, try this article. -jt3)

THE PAGAN ORIGINS OF BIBLICAL MORALITY
Or - Where did Moses really get those commandments from?
One of the most pervasive claims of the Judeo-Christian tradition (*funny, I've never made such a claim. -jt3*) is that morality comes from the Biblical god and belongs only to Jews and/or Christians. It's like a mantra for some religious fundamentalists.
The very phrase "Judeo-Christian morality" explicitly takes credit for modern moral concepts, implying that non-believers are essentially incapable of moral virtue. (2) Jewish scripture has Moses introducing morality into a pagan, immoral world when he purportedly brought the 10 commandments and a long list of other laws down off Mt. Sinai. (3) Christians add Jesus as the final arbiter of moral issues.
I hope this sampling of parallels between Biblical and Bronze Age, pre-Biblical literature - by no means comprehensive - will show that claim is a myth. The Bible's moral ideas, both those that modern society still accepts and those it has rejected, are the products of pre-Biblical societies, which stressed virtue in an abstract sense and offered practical advice on everyday ethics.
The Iron Age Bible (1st millennium BCE,) is but an anthology of older beliefs and attitudes. There is no single collection of Bronze Age (3rd and 2nd millenniums BCE) moral principles, but the concerns of pre-Biblical peoples are scattered throughout their literature.

http://nosha.secularhumanism.net/essays/sierichs6.html

(Overall, a very interesting article -jt3)
--------------
That's enough for now, there's a lot here to digest. It seems there are no easy answers to my question. And even those who could answer, are not likely to agree amongst themselves.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by alexa

You forget one thing Juan. They were many of them burned or hunged for sorcelerie. It's a good reason to be scared.

Most of them work in solitary and find thier own "recepies". Few of them are in a covent and as I have read it's not very easy to find one. If they don't trust you, you are not allowed to participate. So, when they are able to manage alone, in my opinion, they do not feel the need to share.

Let's see, the Salem witch hunts, which are probably about the most recent, took place sometime in the 1600's if I recall. Yet Wicca is only fifty years old...something doesn't add up. Why are wiccans using a line about burning witches, if they are not "witches?" Add in increasing public acceptance, and legal tolerance, and "in the face" insistence, and I don't quite buy that old line. I think it is an excuse to scapegoat an "other." Since many Christians are intolerant of paganism in general, they become a natural target for pagan hatred and discrimination. Pagans then focus their intolerance on Christians, and around and around it goes.

I see both sides failing to live up to their creeds. God knows enough Christians died for their faith too, many at the hands of pagans!

[Vajradhara]

Namatse all,


here's my contribution from the Taoist side...

i've a thread in the Tao section called, funnily enough, Taoism

in any event... we can sum up the moral perspective in this manner:

"Humanity follows earth, earth follows heaven, heaven follows the Way, the Way follows Nature." In the final sense, therefore, Taoism, or Wayfaring, refers to the pursuit of natural laws.

These natural laws are reflected in the body (earth), the mind (heaven), and in the order of the universe (the Way of Nature). The practice of Taoism, therefore, takes place in the cultivation and refinement of the natural capacities of the human body-mind continuum and its relationship with the social milieu and the natural world."

Taoism

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Vajradhara!

Thank you for your post!

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

"Humanity follows earth, earth follows heaven, heaven follows the Way, the Way follows Nature." In the final sense, therefore, Taoism, or Wayfaring, refers to the pursuit of natural laws.

These natural laws are reflected in the body (earth), the mind (heaven), and in the order of the universe (the Way of Nature). The practice of Taoism, therefore, takes place in the cultivation and refinement of the natural capacities of the human body-mind continuum and its relationship with the social milieu and the natural world."

Thank you for the clarification. I have always had a difficult time understanding Taoism, I think because it (in my experience) is seldom practiced as a single discipline. It is usually merged with something else, adding flavor so to speak. By "order of the universe (the Way of Nature)" may I presume you to mean something akin to the Hindu "dance of Shiva?" (Chopra)
Which kinda raises a question within a question. Oh my, with all due respect, perhaps you are not the person to ask. I was wondering how "spirit" figured into "nature", and at this macro level described by Tao and Hindu thought, I can see the possibility. Yet, regarding my "nature as a cruel mistress" observation, using the Christian dichotomy of good vs evil as well as Taoist yin/yang, spirit would then be as expected, at least from my tradition. I still question deriving morality from nature, even in this sense. The Christian tradition spends a great deal of teaching on discerning "spirit" (good vs evil), so following nature as such (spirit) would create a quandary. Even if one accepts that "evil" must be, as a necessary part of spirit nature, does one draw moral examples from it? (perhaps as examples of what not to do?)

Perhaps I have stumbled into an unanswerable question. Then again, maybe the answer I seek is in esoteric Judaism or Gnosis? Maybe I should look there next...

[Vajradhara]

Namaste juan,


thank you for the post.

ah.. i see what you're saying and i think i see why you're having difficulties with these eastern type religious paths.

i could be way off base, so please correct me if i'm wrong.

it seems that you are looking for the authority, as it were, from which the tradition derives its moral view regarding good and evil. as you correctly point out, in the Christian tradition this is usually phased as "good vs. evil".

this is not a concept that can be applied to the Buddhist and Taoist traditions, and only to Vedanta in the most oblique manner.

the Yin/Yang of Taoist thought does not correspond to "good and evil", per se, rather, it corresponds with the passive/active aspects of awareness. often, the terms are masculine/feminine or light/dark etc. remember, Taoist thought comes from China where the world view is drastically different than is found in the west, which essentially have Greek world views. for the Taoist, the entire cosmos is Li.. organic pattern.. everything is part and parcel of the universe as an organic whole. seperating things into "good" or "bad" are derivations from the Way and are sicknesses of the mind.

the same holds true for Buddhism.. with the cavet that they could have the Indian world view or the Chinese world view.. however, i've not met any that have a Greek world view... but i suppose that there could be some.

we lable this or that for the purpose of communicating with other humans, however, our lables do not, necessarily, correspond with the actual object that we are discussing.

you are correct... Taoism is part and parcel of every aspect of Chinese thought.. hence, you have Tao in physics, maths, carpentry, religion and so forth. however, as difficult as they are to find, there are some schools of Taoism that are unadulterated.

the Way of Nature wouldn't be the same as the Dance of Shiva since Shiva is definite quality of MahaBrahma. the Tao cannot be contained in that fashion... the first lines of the Tao Te Ching say it best... The Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao.

again.. i would say that the essential difficulty seems to be in viewing the other traditions from the position of your current religious belief. they are, in many respects, non-compatible systems espeically with regards for the sources of their moral arguments.

[alexa]

Hello Juan,

You were really busy ! Really, I don't understand how you do it. Are you on vacation ?

Anyway, as it seems the pagan religions cannot give us what you are looking for, I'll change a little the site of researche.

So, here they are the native americans to be analysed about their morality :

Quotations:

"The culture, values and traditions of native people amount to more than crafts and carvings. Their respect for the wisdom of their elders, their concept of family responsibilities extending beyond the nuclear family to embrace a whole village, their respect for the environment, their willingness to share - all of these values persist within their own culture even though they have been under unremitting pressure to abandon them." Mr. Justice Thomas Berger, Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Inquiry, (aka the Berger Inquiry).

"Rather than going to church, I attend a sweat lodge; rather than accepting bread and toast [sic] from the Holy Priest, I smoke a ceremonial pipe to come into Communion with the Great Spirit; and rather than kneeling with my hands placed together in prayer, I let sweetgrass be feathered over my entire being for spiritual cleansing and allow the smoke to carry my prayers into the heavens. I am a Mi'kmaq, and this is how we pray." Noah Augustine, from his article "Grandfather was a knowing Christian," Toronto Star, Toronto ON Canada, 2000-AUG-9.

"If you take the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind." Statement by an anonymous Native woman.

A quote from Native American Religions by Arlene Hirschfelder and Paulette Molin (Facts on File, New York, 1992, ISBN 0-8160-2017-5) is instructive:

".....the North American public remains ignorant about Native American religions. And this, despite the fact that hundreds of books and articles have been published by anthropologists, religionists and others about native beliefs......Little of this scholarly literature has found its way into popular books about Native American religion..."

Because of the wide range of habitats in North America, different native religions evolved to match the needs and lifestyles of the individual tribe.

Religious traditions of aboriginal peoples around the world tend to be heavily influenced by their methods of acquiring food, whether by hunting wild animals or by agriculture. Native American spirituality is no exception. Their rituals and belief show a blending of interest in promoting and preserving their hunting and horticulture.

The Inuit
The traditional Inuit (Eskimo) culture is similar to those found in other circumpolar regions: Northern Russia and the Northern Scandinavian countries. Life has been precarious; there are the double challenges of the cold, and the continual threat of starvation. (The popular name for the Inuit, "Eskimo", is not used by the Inuit.).

Their religious belief is grounded in the belief that anua (souls) exist in all people and animals. Individuals, families and the tribe must follow a complex system of taboos to assure that animals will continue to make themselves available to the hunters. Many rituals and ceremonies are performed before and after hunting expeditions to assure hunting success.

An underwater Goddess Sedna or Takanaluk is in charge of the sea mammals. She is part human and part fish. She observes how closely the tribe obeys the taboos and releases her animals to the hunters accordingly. There is an corresponding array of deities who release land mammals; these are Keepers or Masters, one for each species.

The Angakut or Shaman is the spiritual leader of each tribe. He is able to interpret the causes of sickness or lack of hunting success; he can determine the individual or family responsible and isolate the broken taboo. In a manner similar to Shamans in may other cultures, he enters a trance with the aid of drum beating and chanting. This allows his soul to leave his body and traverse great distances to determine the causes of sickness and other community problems.

Eastern Subarctic, Eastern Woodlands, Plains and Southwest Cultures
Native religions in these areas share some similarities, and differ significantly from Inuit culture described above. Tribes also differ greatly from each other. Spiritual elements found in some (but not all) non-Inuit native religions are:

Deity: A common concept is that of a dual divinity: a Creator who is responsible for the creation of the world and is recognized in religious ritual and prayersa mythical individual, a hero or trickster, who teaches culture, proper behavior and provides sustenance to the tribe.There are also spirits which control the weather, spirits which interact with humans, and others who inhabit the underworld. Simultaneously the Creator and the spirits may be perceived as a single spiritual force, as in the unity called Wakan-Tanka by the Lakota and Dakota.

Creation: Individual tribes have differing stories of Creation. One set of themes found in some tribes describes that in the beginning, the world was populated by many people. Most were subsequently transformed into animals. Natives thus feel a close bond with animals because of their shared human ancestry. Dogs are excluded from this relationship. This bond is shown in the frequent rituals in which animal behavior is simulated. Each species has its master; for example, the deer have a master deer who is larger than all the others. The master of humans is the Creator.Emergence of the Tribe: This is a concept found extensively in the Southwest. The universe is believed to consist of many dark, underground layers through which the humans had to climb. They emerged into the present world through a small hole in the ground - the world's navel. Other tribes believe that their ancestors have been present in North America as far back as there were humans.Sacred Texts: Many tribes have complex forms of writing. Other tribes have preserved their spiritual beliefs as an oral tradition.Afterlife: In general, Native religions have no precise belief about life after death. Some believe in reincarnation, with a person being reborn either as a human or animal after death. Others believe that humans return as ghosts, or that people go to an other world. Others believe that nothing definitely can be known about one's fate after this life. Combinations of belief are common.Cosmology: Again, many tribes have unique concepts of the world and its place in the universe. One theme found in some tribes understands the universe as being composed of multiple layers. The natural world is a middle segment. These layers are thought to be linked by the World Tree, which has its roots in the underground, has a trunk passing through the natural world, and has its top in the sky world.Shamans: Although the term "Shaman" has its origins in Siberia, it is often used by anthropologists throughout the world to refer to Aboriginal healers. Spirits may be encouraged to occupy the Shaman's body during public lodge ceremonies. Drum beating and chanting aid this process. The spirits are then asked to depart and perform the needed acts. Other times, Shamans enter into a trance and traverse the underworld or go great distances in this world to seek lost possessions or healing.Vision Quest: Young boys before or at puberty are encouraged to enter into a period of fasting, meditation and physical challenge. He separates himself from the tribe and go to a wilderness area. The goal is to receive a vision that will guide his development for the rest of his life. They also seek to acquire a guardian spirit who will be close and supportive for their lifetime. Girls are not usually eligible for such a quest. Renewal Celebrations: The Sun Dance amongst the Plains Natives is perceived as a replay of the original creation. Its name is a mistranslation of the Lakota sun gazing dance. Other tribes use different names. It fulfilled many religious purposes: to give thanks to the Creator, to pray for the renewal of the people and earth, to promote health, etc. It also gave an opportunity for people to socialize and renew friendships with other groups. A sweat lodge purifies the participants and readies them for lengthy fasting and dancing. It was successfully suppressed in most tribes by the Governments of the US and Canada. However, it survived elsewhere and is now being increasingly celebrated.Sweat Lodge: This is structure which generates hot moist air, similar to a Finnish sauna. It is used for rituals of purification, for spiritual renewal and of healing, for education of the youth, etc. A sweat lodge may be a small structure made of a frame of saplings, covered with skins, canvas or blanket. A depression is dug in the center into which hot rocks are positioned. Water is thrown on the rocks to create steam. A small flap opening is used to regulate the temperature. As many as a dozen people can be accommodated in some lodges.Hunting ceremonies: these involve the ritual treatment of a bear or other animal after its killing during a successful hunt. The goal is to appease its spirit and convince other animals to be willing to be killed in the future.Prophets: The Abramic Religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) trace their development through a series of patriarchs and prophets. Native religions do not have as many corresponding revered persons in their background. Some Native prophets include Handsome Lake in the Iroquois Confederacy, Sweet Medicine of the Cheyenne, and White Buffalo Woman of the Lakota & Dakota tribes.

What do you think about this ? I like the idea of a Vision Quest, but I don't like the girls are left out.

I'll wait for your comments.

Regards,

alexa

[alexa]

Here is something about right and wrong in native american ethics :

Concepts of right and wrong in traditional Native American societies tend to be attached to actions that either promote or diminish the even flow of life -- the balance -- that must be kept at all times. Human beings have obligations to behave in certain ways toward all other aspects of creation. If these obligations are honored, harmony and balance are preserved. Poor relationships of any kind -- relationships that fail to follow patterns laid down in mythic time -- destroy the balance, whether it is a relationship between human and human, human and spirit, human and animal, or human and plant. The Navajo word hozho points to all of this. Although it is difficult to translate into English, its sense is of balance, harmony, beauty, and completeness. Wrong actions are those that disrupt balance and harmony, jeopardizing the wellbeing of a people and the cosmos as a whole.


The Cherokee, a people who share characteristics of both Woodlands and Southeastern regions, developed a complex system of keeping this balance. In their world, all phenomena belonged to groups of similar beings, each of which had its opposite. Opposing groups must never be associated with each other except with strict controls and ritual limits. Men and women were members of two such groups (masculine and feminine), and their contacts were carefully controlled. Fire and water were another such pair. A different, crucial kind of balance was achieved among human beings, animals, and plants. According to traditional Cherokee narratives, humankind's irresponsible killing of animals for food and clothing caused great resentment among the animals, who decided to infect humankind with a new disease every time an animal was killed. Plants took pity on the suffering humans and offered themselves, with their wisdom, as cures for the animal plagues. Ever since that time, plants have been allies of the Cherokee, and hunters have taken great care to follow proper rituals to honor the spirits of animals killed in the hunt. Each tribe developed its own unique formulas connecting human behavior to the patterns of the universe. Sometimes the resulting laws were as complex as those of the Mississippian priesthoods in the Southeast. Sometimes they laid subtle ceremonial requirements on the members of exclusive groups, such as the kivas of the Southwest or the warrior societies of the Plains. Sometimes they were simple and unambiguous, almost absorbed with mothers' milk. But in every case, they attempted to align the tribe's actions with spiritual realities perceived in the universe around them.

Here you have the links releated :

http://religiousmovements.lib.virgin.../naspirit.html

www.stormwind.com/common/nareligion.html

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Vajradhara!

Thank you most sincerely!

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

it seems that you are looking for the authority, as it were, from which the tradition derives its moral view regarding good and evil.

Ummm, yes, I guess this is correct.

this is not a concept that can be applied to the Buddhist and Taoist traditions, and only to Vedanta in the most oblique manner.

Very well. If I may ask, surely the Eastern traditions, at least among the laity, do have some moral concept of right and wrong? If I understood what I read about Confucianism, that would be based on honor, not looking to nature as such for moral example.

the Yin/Yang of Taoist thought does not correspond to "good and evil", per se, rather, it corresponds with the passive/active aspects of awareness.

Very well, I stand corrected in my assessment.

seperating things into "good" or "bad" are derivations from the Way and are sicknesses of the mind.

Just curious, what does one call deviations from the Way? In other words, if one is not in accord with the Way, how is that described to a third party?

we lable this or that for the purpose of communicating with other humans, however, our lables do not, necessarily, correspond with the actual object that we are discussing.

Understood. Eastern traditions focus on the experience, Western traditions focus on explanation (labels). Yes, I am approaching from the point of explanation, it is the way I know.

The Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao.

Yet surely the "priest" or adept must have some method of teaching the new recruit. I understand, the experience is the thing. I have not the experience, I am seeking the training manual for the purpose of understanding. By the way (pardon the pun), you're doing a great job!

again.. i would say that the essential difficulty seems to be in viewing the other traditions from the position of your current religious belief. they are, in many respects, non-compatible systems espeically with regards for the sources of their moral arguments.

Actually, for this exercise, I am trying to set my personal beliefs aside. That may not be fully possible, but I am trying (another bad pun ). Truth be told, I am torn on the subject, hence my original question. I want to believe I can take a neutral position for this in an effort to see and understand, in order to come away with a better informed decision for myself. Does this better explain my motivation?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Alexa!

What a brilliant stroke of thought! Native American traditions would seem to be a natural! (I'm bad about puns tonight )

Originally Posted by alexa

Concepts of right and wrong in traditional Native American societies tend to be attached to actions that either promote or diminish the even flow of life -- the balance -- that must be kept at all times.

Balance! Of course!

Although it is difficult to translate into English, its sense is of balance, harmony, beauty, and completeness. Wrong actions are those that disrupt balance and harmony, jeopardizing the wellbeing of a people and the cosmos as a whole.

I wonder how much of this corresponds in general terms with neo-pagan and Eastern traditions?

...they attempted to align the tribe's actions with spiritual realities perceived in the universe around them.

One must remember that tribal societies lived harsh and brutal lives.

Now that I think about it, does tribal morality translate well into modern civil society? In some tribes, part of the rite of passage for a boy into manhood involved killing an enemy. "War" was a regular part of life, even if it was not war in the sense that Westerners think now. It was morally acceptable to steal your enemy's ponies.

Oh my, I think you've hit on something. Now to sort it out...