Moo!

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

And there is the problem with the mere, insignificant human.... It -thinks- it is something special, something better, something higher than all the other animals around it.. Heh, gotta laugh.... It is the animal I dislike the most.

But we are not insignificant (at least in our own eyes). From our own point of view, we are more significant than the others. Although a cow may think of himself as significant, because our minds are more sophisticated than other animals our significance outweighs that of the cow!!! From observation, cows haven't demonstrated enough emotional sophistication to be regarded as equals, much in the same way that computers don't have emotions. They are not articulate enough.

All cows can say is Moo. I can't tell the difference between one moo and another.

Originally Posted by Neemai

What's the difference between the soul in the dog who is your pet and the soul in the cows that you take milk from and slaughter? Does anyone really think there is one?

We decide.

The more meaningful the interaction and the relationship, the more value a creature has. Our own, greater sophistication justifies our decision.

But dogs and cows don't have souls anyway. They only have brains.

Us humans -- we are divine. Our souls came from heaven, and they will return to heaven.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

(at least in our own eyes). .

Enough said really...

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

But dogs and cows don't have souls anyway. They only have brains.

You cannot proove that, just as much as you cannot proove you have a soul... You can only go by whatever religion you follows says... But that doesn't make it 100% true.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

You cannot proove that, just as much as you cannot proove you have a soul... You can only go by whatever religion you follows says... But that doesn't make it 100% true.

Reality is subjective, so aren't beliefs enough? Sure, it can't be proven, but that is exactly the point. You have to belief in something you go on eating McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Red Rooster and Hungry Jacks.

It doesn't have to be 100% true, as long as one person believes in it, it's enough to start a business, ..... or a religion.

[17th Angel]

So one of your main points here, is that you have a soul, an animal doesn't so that makes you better than it... But, then you say that may not even be true that you have a soul, that perhaps it is just a business to con people, and you have bought your shares.... Seem's odd.

[wil]

Story time...

I was driving around a curve on a divided highway...two lanes going my direction, plenty of room, as I came around a corner into my headlights right in front of me appeared a cow, I left off the gas and moved into the other lane to avoid her. Perfectly shadowed behind that cow was another cow, going around her would have meant careening into the fence with four other passengers in the car, I attempted to swerve/slalom back between them clipping the one on the right. Those in the car we talking and missed the whole thing only one caught a glimpse of one cow. We looked around I'd sent that cow flying and it landed dead along the fence line. The entire herd was moving and mooing thru the fields...telling each other what had happened and looking at us for killing their buddy...

Anyone who deals with small numbers of cows has a respect for them, not as dumb animals...many that deal with large numbers of them get numbed by the whole slaughter experience...

I used to be a hunter...I quit eating storebought, farm raised meat over 25 years ago, due to what I knew about slaughter houses and farms. I only ate what got in front of my gun. I used to catch a lot of grief from both veggies and carnivores....the veggies knowing I often ate vegetarian couldn't believe I hunted and a surprisingly high amount of carnivores had issues with hunting. I thought it hilarious that they found it ok to hire someone to raise animals for food, hire assassins and slaughterers to cut, slice, dice, sanitize and provide cadavers for food wrapped in plastic, while chastising me for dealing directly with the animal and nature myself. (haven't hunted since 87...not to say I may not return to it in the future) Although I don't eat meat today ('cept at the sushi bar) I really can't see the difference if your going to eat cow, sheep, why not dog and cat and monkey and rabbit and horse...

The Sacred Cow. The cow was made sacred in India due to the population explosion thousands of years ago...and they were in trouble of losing all cattle to food, cattle were needed however to plow the fields and provide milk. The hierarchy determined that a cow/ox could provide more sustenance by plowing than by plowing and then eating what it plowed. Hence cows were made sacred. Leo, the metaphor of the sacred cow, means what if I slaughtered (verbally or in your mind) something that you held dear and sacred (call it blasphemy or heretical) made fun of your beliefs, belittled your faith....ie killed your sacred cow...this is what I spoke of in an earlier post...

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

So one of your main points here, is that you have a soul, an animal doesn't so that makes you better than it... But, then you say that may not even be true that you have a soul, that perhaps it is just a business to con people, and you have bought your shares.... Seem's odd.

What would cows do anyway if we granted them citizenship status? Does the Constitution say all animals are equal?

Are they going to vote? Go to school? Learn to read, write and speak our language? Go to college and have careers in science, engineering, law and medicine?

Of course not. Cows are already employed. They don't need to go to school or college and get an education. They are already fully qualified for the job they serve. --- Food. What else does a cow live for?

Until they turn up with banners of protest for societal reforms I think we can go on having our McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken!!!

I don't expect any rebellion or revolution anytime in the near future. Why don't animals start campaigning for their own rights? It seems to be done more by humans nowadays; some of them still eat McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken.

[Snoopy]

I don’t think I’ve ever read so much in one thread that I disagree with, and find so callous.

Just because you can, that doesn’t mean you should.

"I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and a time will come when men such as I will look upon murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men" - Leonardo de Vinci.

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals" - Mahatma Gandhi.

s.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Does the Constitution say all animals are equal?.

The what?

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Are they going to vote? Go to school? Learn to read, write and speak our language? Go to college and have careers in science, engineering, law and medicine?

Of course not. Cows are already employed. They don't need to go to school or college and get an education. They are already fully qualified for the job they serve. --- Food. What else does a cow live for?

Until they turn up with banners of protest for societal reforms I think we can go on having our McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken!!!

I don't expect any rebellion or revolution anytime in the near future. Why don't animals start campaigning for their own rights? It seems to be done more by humans nowadays; some of them still eat McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken

Again they haven't out grown their brains... To the level we are currently at... Without many animals/bugs/insects/living things... This world would be a very different place... (that's not a good thing btw.)

[Saltmeister]

Hey, I was just fooling around.......

But seriously......is it really so wrong to eat animals? Am I an ugly, dark sinister or contemptible person just because I've been eating meat?

I know a friend who used to be vegetarian, but had to give up that lifestyle because her body needed meat (ie. iron). Without meat, her body couldn't get enough iron to make haemoglobin. Her body just couldn't take it. She was often dizzy and vomiting, especially during her periods. Her iron levels were so low.

So she stopped being a vegetarian. It was a lifestyle that wasn't sustainable. Morality of not eating meat just wasn't reasonable. "Morality" had to be given up for reasonableness.

With regards to morality, the idea that animals shouldn't be eaten has itself to do with beliefs. That is what I meant by "subjective reality."

I did, of course, have to justify and rationalise my lifestyle, but this is in response to the idea that I am a contemptible person just because I eat meat. I am being condemned for being a carnivore. Carnivore behaviour is being labelled as a disease. It's being seen as an attitude problem.

If laws in Western society change in the near future, my physiology may suffer. I need the iron. Moreover, it may hurt my chances of getting a job just because I can't go without meat. People are going to despise carnivores. Anyone who is a carnivore doesn't deserve to be a citizen just because he eats fellow animals. Everywhere I go, meaty food is outlawed.

Carnivore attitudes are going to be just as despised as homosexuality and pornographic addictions. It's just so unjust and unfair. What if I can't help being a carnivore? Do I lose my rights? So I'm going to have to writhe in pain just because of my physiology?

It's like the Wraith from Stargate Atlantis. If you don't watch the series, the Wraith are a species that eat humans. A bunch of humans tried to turn a Wraith into a human (because the Wraith are really just humans infested with a disease), and tried to assimilate him and make him live, think and feel like them as a human.

His memory was wiped out so he wouldn't remember the brainwashing, but when he found out and remembered (which was a matter of time), he was furious. His identity as Wraith couldn't be suppressed, even though he was supposed to be a human infested with a disease which made him hunger for human flesh. The idea that his "Wraith-ness" was a disease was an insult to him. He rebelled and escaped his human captors.

No I do not want medication or a technological solution to my "condition." I want something natural, and if I have a natural need for natural meat I don't want to have to go medical.

Why do we have such high standards of morality anyway? Aren't we animals?

The other animals eat each other. Why can't we? We have a human nature, but we also have an animal nature. That's where our sexual appetite comes from. When we have sex we behave like the other animals.

Do you see what I mean by "subjective reality" and "beliefs?" We started forming beliefs with regards to "morality" but then we're forgetting that regardless of what level of "morality" we achieve we are still just "animals."

It would just be more fair if we could be carnivores just like some of the other animals.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

The what?

You know.....the Constitution which says that all men (human beings) are equal -- the one all Western or Western-styled governments are supposed to have. It could be extended to include animals.

Oh yeah.....the luxuries of modern society are great, but I think humans are starting to think too much about their distant cousins. Too smart for their own good.

[17th Angel]

You know..... Meat isn't the only source of Iron right? Potato and Brocolli(incorrect spelling I am sure.) are very, very high for Iron... also drink loads of tea with it Tannin really helps that Iron flow lol..... What else is there hmmm, Wheat, chickpeas, tofu, watermelon, oatmeal, pita bread, spaghetti, loads of soy products and many other natural material. So I think the "I need meat for my Iron balance" is a poor and weak debate....

I myself eat meat lol... But, I am saying that maybe those who say we shouldn't eat meat it's wrong (religiously) and animal care wise.... Could be right there are many other meals that are there, without the need to consume real meat... Or that horrible crap you get from takeaways served by some scrotey little spotty teenager. (thanks america for those food chains....)

Caring for other animals is being too smart for your own good? Yet destruction isn't?

[wil]

I got no grief if you choose to eat meat...like I said there are reasons not to...and eventually if we continue to overpopulate the world we will come to similar conclusions as did India thousands of years ago...that providing pounds and pounds of vegetable protein and tons of water to create one pound of flesh to eat is economically not viable.

I guess it is a good thing that Asian people don't need iron...as so hundreds of millions of them survive on little or no meat...many western vegetarians believe corn chips and potato chips are sustenance...it is a huge issue when someone becomes a veggie without looking into dietary concerns..green vegetables, whole grains and dried fruits all contain iron and it doesn't take much to meet the requirements...

Yes some animals are carnivores or omnivores...their digestive tract is a fraction of the length ours is (to get the toxins out of their system before they are absorbed) and they don't have molars to grind nuts and veggies instead they have oversized canines and cutting teeth all the way around...now if you were to eat meat...best to be eaten the way animals do, raw and warm with blood still coursing through it...that is unless you believe you are more closely related to the vultures...scavengers...eating flesh which has been dead for days, cooked in the sun..

Eating meat is a choice...today...and is not required to be dictated for or against...yet...

[Snoopy]

I genuinely can’t tell about the seriousness or not of some of the stuff on this thread.

People are omnivores, not carnivores or herbivores as wil points out. The great majority of people around the world eat some sort of meat so I don’t think anyone need worry it’s about to be outlawed. A diet is balanced or not, irrespective of whether or not it contains meat.

Maybe the rest of the animal kingdom doesn’t matter, haven’t got souls and are here just to die and be eaten. But the joke’s on us, cos we’re wiping out the forests and the biosphere, feeding the animals junk, eating the crap we make from them and then dying from the pleasure of it.

Amazon.com: Chew On This: Everything You Don't Want to Know About Fast Food: Books: Eric Schlosser,Charles Wilson

Fox Searchlight - Fast Food Nation

Business | The 7,000km journey that links Amazon destruction to fast food


s.

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by wil

I used to be a hunter...I quit eating storebought, farm raised meat over 25 years ago, due to what I knew about slaughter houses and farms. I only ate what got in front of my gun. I used to catch a lot of grief from both veggies and carnivores....the veggies knowing I often ate vegetarian couldn't believe I hunted and a surprisingly high amount of carnivores had issues with hunting. I thought it hilarious that they found it ok to hire someone to raise animals for food, hire assassins and slaughterers to cut, slice, dice, sanitize and provide cadavers for food wrapped in plastic, while chastising me for dealing directly with the animal and nature myself. (haven't hunted since 87...not to say I may not return to it in the future) Although I don't eat meat today ('cept at the sushi bar) I really can't see the difference if your going to eat cow, sheep, why not dog and cat and monkey and rabbit and horse...

I respect your thoughts a lot there Wil. Having been a vegetarian for about 10 years or so I don't see the activity of hunting animals, in order to eat them, to live, as being a sinful at all. In fact I see this as being more honest because the animal has lived a natural life, and you've had to deal with the reality of killing it, before eating the meat. The thing I'm really dead-set against is the wholesale, mechanised slaughter of animals on a massive scale which occurs across much of the 'civilised' world. Animals that are kept purely as commodities, in half-decent, semi-contained conditions at best, but in many cases something much worse. Can anyone sane person who believes in an all-loving God, not see the problem with this?

What is the soul but consciousness? And consciousness is certainly there in the cow and the dog, and any other animal or creature you wish to mention. Maybe in some it is a more developed consciousness than in another, but it is consciousness nonetheless. To treat conscious living beings as possessions and commodities surely undermines any attempts we may make at living a more godly or spiritual life?

"The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle priest, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater." (Bhagavad-Gita 5.18)

... Neemai

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

You know..... Meat isn't the only source of Iron right? Potato and Brocolli(incorrect spelling I am sure.) are very, very high for Iron... also drink loads of tea with it Tannin really helps that Iron flow lol..... What else is there hmmm, Wheat, chickpeas, tofu, watermelon, oatmeal, pita bread, spaghetti, loads of soy products and many other natural material. So I think the "I need meat for my Iron balance" is a poor and weak debate....

I was aware of iron being part of other foods, but simply thought iron was most abundant in meat. Too lazy to do the research.

You also get fat from meat......

Is there a need for iron or fat? Just think meat.........

As I said, I was just being lazy.

Meat was just the only thing I could think of with a good source of iron. Everything else was fuzzy.

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Caring for other animals is being too smart for your own good? Yet destruction isn't?

Well......as long as we're not destroying ourselves in the process.

Maybe indeed it isn't economically viable. I'm just not one wishing to change the world and morality is not high on my agenda. I make no claims at being virtuous. I'm satisfied with taking life as it is. I have no high ideals or standards. I'm not much of an idealist with regards to morality. I think the notion of morality is often pursued beyond human limitations, and sometimes beyond what is expedient. We just can't be perfect. The result is hypocrisy, where we accuse others of violating some principle, due to human limitations, when we ourselves are violating some other or the same principle again due to our own limitations.

I understand that civilisation is progressing, but methinks civilisation and morality are not so important in my religion (as I see it) as understanding and appreciating the relationships and experiences that come from it. ie. Not so much about making rules or considering what is right and wrong, setting values but just merely learning life's lessons.

I make no claims at being "civilised" or of "morality." I just do my best to follow the laws of my country and to be a person with dignity and self-respect in the choices I make, personal relationships and learning from past mistakes and experiences. That said, I don't consider being "civilised" and pursuing "morality" as essential for dignity and self-respect, provided you look after your relationships and learn life's lessons. Civilisation and morality are there if you want to go further. Next level up on the hierarchy.

I make no claims at having reached that level of virtue. I don't consider myself as one who qualifies just because I live in a modern 21st-century society. The society is just a framework, infrastructure. On a more personal level, I'm still somewhere at the bottom.