Monotheism, dualism, reincarnation?

[Postmaster]

It's obvious that both of these beliefs can not exist at the same time? So that means someone is telling a porky? I mean for instance to some extent Christianity believes in dualism with God / Satan. So does that mean that those who believe in dualism only know part of the truth?

I also have more curious questions like, did Jesus ever talk about reincarnation? I believe that Judaism covers issue towards reincarnation and with Jesus Christ being Jewish you would think he would have talked about it. Unless he had Hellenic influence who believed in the after life and not reincarnation?

Maybe there's a system of reincarnation throughout life and each time you get closer and closer to God, until you discover a philosophy about him and then act upon you know to get to go through a final judgment?

This is just some free style discussion, to see what people can come with towards some of my unlimited curious questions.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

It's obvious that both of these beliefs can not exist at the same time? I mean for instance to some extent Christianity believes in dualism with God / Satan.

I think they can exist at the same time in folks' minds and do. Christianity is a great example. Mainstream Christianity accepts monotheism (one God) in the form of a trinity (tritheism), with dualism (belief in two opposing forces- good and evil, God and Satan, in the universe). Paradox? Yep! But something lots wholeheartedly embrace. I've discussed my take on the trinity elsewhere, suffice it to say that God is a Great Mystery. I am monotheist, and I don't believe in a literal Satan. BUT, I believe that since we all have free will, we can choose to serve God or ourselves. When we choose to serve ourselves, to gain power for our own benefit, we are adding to the evil forces of this world. So ultimately, no dualism for me- God alone created everything and imbued everything with His power. BUT, there is a dualism in an immediate, time-encrusted sense. Right now, there's a bunch of folks in His creation that serve themselves, and thus give themselves over to evil action- both in the case of mistakes, wrongdoing, error AND also intentional cruelty and blasphemy. Us sentient beings are creating the dualism we see (although I don't think this capacity is limited to humans, hence you have "demons" or non-human evil spirits).

I also have more curious questions like, did Jesus ever talk about reincarnation? I believe that Judaism covers issue towards reincarnation and with Jesus Christ being Jewish you would think he would have talked about it.

According to the canonized Bible, no, Jesus didn't discuss reincarnation. If I remember correctly, there are snippets in non-canonized texts that claim he did. As far as I know, the Torah doesn't directly discuss reincarnation, but some Jews throughout history have believed it to be a possibility. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly I got this information from the jewfaq website). The thing is, the Torah is more about what to do here on earth and how to relate to God than it is about the afterlife and the nature of Ultimate Reality. Judaism, and Jesus' teachings (which makes sense) is very much concerned with right action and life here and now. So it makes sense that Jesus mostly preached about right action and interpretation of the Law, and didn't say much about what happens after you die, except that you are judged by God for your conduct in life. Heaven and hell are mentioned, but I am of the crowd that after much study and prayer concluded they are not literal places but rather metaphors for states of being with/out God.

Maybe there's a system of reincarnation throughout life and each time you get closer and closer to God, until you discover a philosophy about him and then act upon you know to get to go through a final judgment?

I have a very complicated view of the afterlife, and it isn't very traditionally Christian, I must confess. It's based on a variety of my own experiences combined with studies on death and the dying process, and religious beliefs about the afterlife in numerous religions. Since I believe that heaven and hell are metaphors for a state of spiritual consciousness, I don't really have a problem believing in reincarnation as well. If you turn away from God, I think you'll be in hell (separated from God) everlasting... until you turn toward God.

I have no real answers, but I'll give you my best guess based on what I've experience so far and how I've integrated this with religious study. Basically, I think after you die, you are released from physicality and become pure spirit. You exist in a kind of energy form, but retain your defining self- your deepest self- as well as all the memories of your lives and actions. In this form you come before God, and you are laid bare. I believe that if you have turned toward God and prepared yourself to recognize Him, if you have sought a sense of spirituality and connection, you are not alone. You are with Him. I believe that in following Jesus to the best of my ability, my sins are covered by the love that unifies me and God through my following of Christ. So I can stand in God's Presence, in love, in humility but not shame, reverence but not fear. I believe that folks who aren't in Christ may still be saved by grace if they consistently sought God during their lives. I mean God in the broad sense here- as in the Divine. I don't totally know how that operates, but I have long felt deeply that this was so. Perhaps in having prepared themselves to be spiritual beings, they have also prepared themselves to meet Christ and, in that moment of recognition, confess He is Lord.

At this point, I am in heaven, because I am wholly and completely in the Presence of God.

And then what? Well, I have what seem to be memories from past lives, so I came to the conclusion that I probably have been around in a body before, and might go 'round again. I do think we get some rest for a while in God if we prepared ourselves for it (this is the Paradise, Summerlands, Norse Hel (not hell!), Otherworld concept found all over the world). I think sometimes we go 'round again to grow more spiritually, to become ever closer to God. I think sometimes we go 'round because we want to help others come closer to God, or God sends us for a purpose.

Eventually, I think when our purpose is done and we have given ourselves completely for God, we ultimately are transformed and become utterly unlike our original selves. We become unified with God in a way that only can come about through a complete metamorphosis. This is difficult to describe, and the area that I am least capable of fleshing out in my own belief system. I've had one vision of something like this, but it's really hard to express and quite truthfully, I'm still praying over it and working out what it means. I did not dissolve into nothingness, or become God myself- certainly not. But it was most similar to what Buddhists call Nirvana, or Hindus call Moksha. Moksha is perhaps more appropriate- one professor of mine explained it: like a drop of water returning to the ocean, the soul returns and joins with God. It was becoming a pure energy existing in an eternal moment- no more memory, no more self, but yet a certain energy that I knew was a completely unique creation of God, existing in a state of constantly glorifying God with all the other unique energy creations, creating an illusion of place and beauty, with God as the Presence in our unified Song.

I'm sure all that sounds crazy, especially for a follower of Jesus, but it's the best idea I have so far to account for the various ways I've experience God and heaven, and what seem to be memories of being alive before. It can be really confusing to me to sort out my visions and experiences of God and what seem to be vague recollections- are they memories or messages? Past, present (seems like an odd idea, but possible that everything is only in the present), or future? Heaven or another reality- or is what people call heaven the other reality? Always interesting and exciting, never simple.

Of course, I'm always up for revision with new information or God's guidance! I'm quite sure that I'm way off on certain things, seeing how mysterious it is.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

It's obvious that both of these beliefs can not exist at the same time? So that means someone is telling a porky? I mean for instance to some extent Christianity believes in dualism with God / Satan. So does that mean that those who believe in dualism only know part of the truth?

I also have more curious questions like, did Jesus ever talk about reincarnation? I believe that Judaism covers issue towards reincarnation and with Jesus Christ being Jewish you would think he would have talked about it. Unless he had Hellenic influence who believed in the after life and not reincarnation?

Maybe there's a system of reincarnation throughout life and each time you get closer and closer to God, until you discover a philosophy about him and then act upon you know to get to go through a final judgment?

This is just some free style discussion, to see what people can come with towards some of my unlimited curious questions.

i think all these things can & do exist at the same time. one way or the other you end up running into a wall of either one or the other, so yes i believe they can all be present at the same time.

i think you can have the afterlife & at the same time, i see reincarnation possible also (but not the same way as in eastern thought).
if some can claim incarnation than there is not much difference there. IMO

i think there may be some reference to it there with Elijah & later we see the two witnessess in Revelations. (just thinking)

as for dualism, the devil is not that kind of force as in a demi or lesser god to me.
he was an angel made by God who communicates with God in the scriptures & i believe he is real.

so what exactly are you thinking there Postmaster?

[Postmaster]

Thanks for all your responses very much appreciated... May I add I actually feel like hell to me would be reincarnation, which would be the worst punishment know matter what form in come in, maybe earth is hell? Maybe this is why we spend so much time in conflict here and different clashing views, with physical and mental limitations, pain, suffering and illness which are all inevitable to everyone. Maybe relgion is nothing more then escapism (but doesn't mean it's false or made up).

[foreversearching]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

May I add I actually feel like hell to me would be reincarnation, which would be the worst punishment know matter what form in come in, maybe earth is hell? Maybe this is why we spend so much time in conflict here and different clashing views, with physical and mental limitations, pain, suffering and illness which are all inevitable to everyone.

Just as I was reading through some of the responses I thought that. I do have conflicting beleifs about reincarnation though, In a way I see reincarnation as a sort of hell in itself because through reincarnation we are kept away from God as we have to keep coming back to live otehr lives. But I also beleive maybe this is the way it's meant to be, maybe we have to reincarnate in order to learn and eventualy we won't have to come back anymore.

Just a thought.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I also have more curious questions like, did Jesus ever talk about reincarnation? I believe that Judaism covers issue towards reincarnation and with Jesus Christ being Jewish you would think he would have talked about it. Unless he had Hellenic influence who believed in the after life and not reincarnation?

If I recall correctly, Josephus mentions that the Sadduccees were proponents of reincarnation, and that the Pharisees were pretty dismissive of it.

[path_of_one]

It's always fascinating to me to look at how different people respond to the idea of reincarnation. Some people hate the thought of coming back and having to do more and learn more while others love it. I've come to a moderate position- I'll go whereever God leads me and be glad for it. I'll thank Him no matter what. Of course, I'd prefer to stay in His Presence, but if I get there and He wants me to learn more, or help others, or even just tells me "Go" and doesn't tell me why, I'll go, and do it gladly in the service of God. There are much worse things than this life- I am physically separated from God, but not spiritually, and it is grace that has given me any union with Him at all.

Mostly, it is the actions of humans that make this life depressing for me. I love the earth, the animals, the goodness of God in nature. It's just sad what people do to each other.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

If I recall correctly, Josephus mentions that the Sadduccees were proponents of reincarnation, and that the Pharisees were pretty dismissive of it.

right. except for i think it was the Parisees who believed it & the others did not. it is quite amazing the history of it, because some of the early church of Rome was the same way. while the ones who rejected it, killed the ones who believed it.

some of the Jews did have a belief in it, where they thought the prophets were reincarnated & i think the bible does hint toward it being a possibility.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by foreversearching

Just as I was reading through some of the responses I thought that. I do have conflicting beleifs about reincarnation though, In a way I see reincarnation as a sort of hell in itself because through reincarnation we are kept away from God as we have to keep coming back to live otehr lives. But I also beleive maybe this is the way it's meant to be, maybe we have to reincarnate in order to learn and eventualy we won't have to come back anymore.

Just a thought.

i see it like that too because it brings up the question WHY or why would God keep doing that.
it does seem like hell to a degree because of the toil & burden.

i dont know why, except for if there is a purpose beyond what we can see & the flesh will never know.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

It's always fascinating to me to look at how different people respond to the idea of reincarnation. Some people hate the thought of coming back and having to do more and learn more while others love it. I've come to a moderate position- I'll go whereever God leads me and be glad for it. I'll thank Him no matter what. Of course, I'd prefer to stay in His Presence, but if I get there and He wants me to learn more, or help others, or even just tells me "Go" and doesn't tell me why, I'll go, and do it gladly in the service of God. There are much worse things than this life- I am physically separated from God, but not spiritually, and it is grace that has given me any union with Him at all.

Mostly, it is the actions of humans that make this life depressing for me. I love the earth, the animals, the goodness of God in nature. It's just sad what people do to each other.

i see it like that too. i find the over all actions of humans depressing too & i really do not want to do it again. people do make earth a hell for others & we can do the same thing to ourselves.

i dont really see reincarnation as a doctrine, but more like the possibility. i dont feel like i have been here before or even that i am coming back. but i also pay attention to others in there experiences & what they say.

[Vajradhara]

the Jewish tradition of reincarnation is called Gilgul Neshamot.


you can read abit about it here:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...read.php?t=524


you can also read our discussion regarding the teachings of reincarnation of Christianity here:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...read.php?t=529

[Nitai]

Hare Krishna

About monotheism / dualism / polytheism.

* According to the Vedic Wisdom there is one Supreme Personality of Godhead.
* There are other gods as well but more specifically they are called demigods.
* The demigods are living on the heavenly planets the place where only the very pious living entities can go.
* Being very pious themselves, the demigods are not in competition with the Supreme personality of Godhead (Vishnu or Krishna; you can call Him differently)
* The demigods are actually the faithful servants of the Supreme Lord
* They are like the ministers in the government;
* their service to the Supreme Lord is done as a devotional activity which is happily accepted by Vishnu.
* Origen knew about many different types of angels and their particular activities that correspond to the positions of demigods.
* Actually because all the demigods worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is one without a second this system is also a monotheistic system although to us it looks a polytheism.

God / Satan - dualism

* there is no question in the Vedic wisdom that Satan would be ever more powerful then God.
* in the Puranas - historical books of the universe, there are descriptions of big demons like Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa, Ravana etc. who wanted to kill the Supreme Personality of Godhead but instead of that they were killed by Him.
* God's mercy is so great that just by killing these demons they attained liberation from the material world
* liberation, that is attained by great yogis after many, many lifetimes
* Why is this so? because they immediately became purified by the touch of the Supreme Lord.
Hare Krishna

Reincarnation

Here are few interesting links that deal with scientific exploration of reincarnation. The first link is about the research work of Dr. Ian Stenvenson, the pioneer of reincarnation research. Go to the link:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation01.html

Of course, there are always critics on such researches but here is another link where you can read about such bad critics.

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/bookreviews/11-4/edwards.html


On following link there are interesting reports or cases of remembering the past lifes.

http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/reincarnation.html

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

path-of-one, I pretty much agree with your idea of the afterlife, although I've never been able to formulate it so clearly. Thank you. I also have the awareness that I could be all wet, but I know that God knows I'm doing my best to understand, and I think God would forgive me for being wrong. If after I die, God says to me, "You know what? You were completely wrong - here's what really happens -" I believe I'm prepared to accept whatever that is, in the knowledge that whatever way the afterlife is arranged, it is the best possible way.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

It was becoming a pure energy existing in an eternal moment- no more memory, no more self, but yet a certain energy that I knew was a completely unique creation of God, existing in a state of constantly glorifying God with all the other unique energy creations, creating an illusion of place and beauty, with God as the Presence in our unified Song.

This is a new idea for me, and I find it absolutely beautiful.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

I also have the awareness that I could be all wet, but I know that God knows I'm doing my best to understand, and I think God would forgive me for being wrong. If after I die, God says to me, "You know what? You were completely wrong - here's what really happens -" I believe I'm prepared to accept whatever that is, in the knowledge that whatever way the afterlife is arranged, it is the best possible way.

Dear Scarlet,

I agree with this too. We can speculate and go on and on trying to put it all together now, but in the end it is turning our being completely over to God. Actually, I look forward to the better understanding, seeing clearly rather than than seeing through the glass dimly as I do in this life, as part of the peace and joy of heaven.

lunamoth

[Nitai]

Few more thoughts on reincarnation

* The living entity reincarnates in this material world because of his attachment to materialistic activities and desire to enjoy material life
* material desires, activities and material enjoyment excludes God
* God is merciful so He fulfills ones desires
* He guides the soul into the next life in a suitable place where ones desires can be fulfilled
* the place for material enjoyment and continuation of material desires is only the material world

# by always doing service to God ones heart becomes purified from material desires;
# in the beginning performance of such service is not spontaneous but rather one does it as a duty keeping before himself the ultimate goal - love of God
# by performing devotional service to God one stops to perform material activities and gives up tendency to enjoy material life
# as the taste for serving God increases - love and devotion to God also increase
# this results in attachment to God and hankering to attain His association
# when one is 24h steady in serving God without any selfish motivation one attains Pure Love of God.
# such a soul is certainly taken back to the spiritual abode of God.

CONCLUSION:
** to keep material desires for enjoying material life results in rebirth in material world
** sincere endeavors to always please the Lord results in going Back into His abode

NOTE: even when one is at least 80% purified and makes sincere endeavor to always please God, God will make up the rest of 20% taking away the last impurities, and thus taking the sincere soul back His spiritual abode.