Monotheism, dualism, reincarnation?

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

I also have the awareness that I could be all wet, but I know that God knows I'm doing my best to understand, and I think God would forgive me for being wrong. If after I die, God says to me, "You know what? You were completely wrong - here's what really happens -" I believe I'm prepared to accept whatever that is, in the knowledge that whatever way the afterlife is arranged, it is the best possible way.

This is pretty much how I see it too. I'm pretty certain there's no way I'll understand all the details in this life, and I could well be misinterpreting the bit that I do have. I truly believe that God forgives us for our little brains trying to understand this great mystery.

And that's pretty much how I will respond in the afterlife too- I'm prepared to take what God gives me, and be grateful. No doubt His infinite wisdom has prepared exactly where I am supposed to go.

As for the energy body thing, yes, it was the most beautiful vision I've ever had, and I've had some hum-dingers. I have the entire thing with the details written down and periodically I re-read and remember that feeling. It gives me a lot of hope. I have to admit, though, that it did make me realize how attached I am/was (working on this) to my family and pets. In prayer a few weeks after this vision I received a very clear feeling from God that it was my choice whether to hold on to my memories and go to the sort of paradise-heaven people talk about, where you reunite and all, or whether to let go of everything but God and become what I was in the vision. I didn't feel pressure from God, or shame, or anything. But I sobbed, because I am attached to a few people and pets, and to be honest, a bit attached to memories from past lives as well, the me that I once was and the loves I once had... and I can't even explain how much it rocked me to feel, very clearly, that it was my choice whether to hold on to all of that or choose to return to this place of energy and be transformed. That choice is one I have been pondering ever since, taking in prayer.

Of course, it is entirely possible (and probable) that I'm missing some pieces to the puzzle here. Or that God is using the vision to teach me a lesson about loving Him above all else, of being willing to give up everything for Him, even giving up my expectations of the afterlife. Whatever the case may be, it was beautiful (and entirely suprising) and I'm grateful.

[Nitai]

Hare Krishna

It's an interesting vision and experience you had. I would have some thoughts on this if you don't mind.

* Giving up everything for the sake of attaining God is not possible.
* as you honestly admitted you still have some attachments to your pets and family
* so, what to do?
* the Vedas recommend that we develop a vision that everything and everybody belongs to God
* everything what we have, the situations we in which we find ourselves are all the mercy of God
* in this way we develop detachment from things we have and
* gratefulness to God what is the seed of devotion to God
* actually from what we can become detached if everything belongs to God?


# the Vedas recommend that we see others as part and parcels of God
# Love to others is love only when we help them to make spiritual advancement

** So, in this way one can always be God-conscious what is the cause of developing love for God.
** at one point you will find yourself that you cannot spend your time without thinking and speaking about God
** this is similar to a boy always thinking about girlfriend
** the first case is called love of God

[earl]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

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I think they can exist at the same time in folks' minds and do. Christianity is a great example. Mainstream Christianity accepts monotheism (one God) in the form of a trinity (tritheism), with dualism (belief in two opposing forces- good and evil, God and Satan, in the universe). Paradox? Yep! But something lots wholeheartedly embrace. I've discussed my take on the trinity elsewhere, suffice it to say that God is a Great Mystery. I am monotheist, and I don't believe in a literal Satan. BUT, I believe that since we all have free will, we can choose to serve God or ourselves. When we choose to serve ourselves, to gain power for our own benefit, we are adding to the evil forces of this world. So ultimately, no dualism for me- God alone created everything and imbued everything with His power. BUT, there is a dualism in an immediate, time-encrusted sense. Right now, there's a bunch of folks in His creation that serve themselves, and thus give themselves over to evil action- both in the case of mistakes, wrongdoing, error AND also intentional cruelty and blasphemy. Us sentient beings are creating the dualism we see (although I don't think this capacity is limited to humans, hence you have "demons" or non-human evil spirits).




According to the canonized Bible, no, Jesus didn't discuss reincarnation. If I remember correctly, there are snippets in non-canonized texts that claim he did. As far as I know, the Torah doesn't directly discuss reincarnation, but some Jews throughout history have believed it to be a possibility. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly I got this information from the jewfaq website). The thing is, the Torah is more about what to do here on earth and how to relate to God than it is about the afterlife and the nature of Ultimate Reality. Judaism, and Jesus' teachings (which makes sense) is very much concerned with right action and life here and now. So it makes sense that Jesus mostly preached about right action and interpretation of the Law, and didn't say much about what happens after you die, except that you are judged by God for your conduct in life. Heaven and hell are mentioned, but I am of the crowd that after much study and prayer concluded they are not literal places but rather metaphors for states of being with/out God.


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I have a very complicated view of the afterlife, and it isn't very traditionally Christian, I must confess. It's based on a variety of my own experiences combined with studies on death and the dying process, and religious beliefs about the afterlife in numerous religions. Since I believe that heaven and hell are metaphors for a state of spiritual consciousness, I don't really have a problem believing in reincarnation as well. If you turn away from God, I think you'll be in hell (separated from God) everlasting... until you turn toward God.

I have no real answers, but I'll give you my best guess based on what I've experience so far and how I've integrated this with religious study. Basically, I think after you die, you are released from physicality and become pure spirit. You exist in a kind of energy form, but retain your defining self- your deepest self- as well as all the memories of your lives and actions. In this form you come before God, and you are laid bare. I believe that if you have turned toward God and prepared yourself to recognize Him, if you have sought a sense of spirituality and connection, you are not alone. You are with Him. I believe that in following Jesus to the best of my ability, my sins are covered by the love that unifies me and God through my following of Christ. So I can stand in God's Presence, in love, in humility but not shame, reverence but not fear. I believe that folks who aren't in Christ may still be saved by grace if they consistently sought God during their lives. I mean God in the broad sense here- as in the Divine. I don't totally know how that operates, but I have long felt deeply that this was so. Perhaps in having prepared themselves to be spiritual beings, they have also prepared themselves to meet Christ and, in that moment of recognition, confess He is Lord.

At this point, I am in heaven, because I am wholly and completely in the Presence of God.

And then what? Well, I have what seem to be memories from past lives, so I came to the conclusion that I probably have been around in a body before, and might go 'round again. I do think we get some rest for a while in God if we prepared ourselves for it (this is the Paradise, Summerlands, Norse Hel (not hell!), Otherworld concept found all over the world). I think sometimes we go 'round again to grow more spiritually, to become ever closer to God. I think sometimes we go 'round because we want to help others come closer to God, or God sends us for a purpose.

Eventually, I think when our purpose is done and we have given ourselves completely for God, we ultimately are transformed and become utterly unlike our original selves. We become unified with God in a way that only can come about through a complete metamorphosis. This is difficult to describe, and the area that I am least capable of fleshing out in my own belief system. I've had one vision of something like this, but it's really hard to express and quite truthfully, I'm still praying over it and working out what it means. I did not dissolve into nothingness, or become God myself- certainly not. But it was most similar to what Buddhists call Nirvana, or Hindus call Moksha. Moksha is perhaps more appropriate- one professor of mine explained it: like a drop of water returning to the ocean, the soul returns and joins with God. It was becoming a pure energy existing in an eternal moment- no more memory, no more self, but yet a certain energy that I knew was a completely unique creation of God, existing in a state of constantly glorifying God with all the other unique energy creations, creating an illusion of place and beauty, with God as the Presence in our unified Song.

I'm sure all that sounds crazy, especially for a follower of Jesus, but it's the best idea I have so far to account for the various ways I've experience God and heaven, and what seem to be memories of being alive before. It can be really confusing to me to sort out my visions and experiences of God and what seem to be vague recollections- are they memories or messages? Past, present (seems like an odd idea, but possible that everything is only in the present), or future? Heaven or another reality- or is what people call heaven the other reality? Always interesting and exciting, never simple.

Of course, I'm always up for revision with new information or God's guidance! I'm quite sure that I'm way off on certain things, seeing how mysterious it is.

Hi Path. I always appreciate you sharing your views & experiences. I generally see it similar to you in this regard. Interesting to me, though, how different religious traditions have rather similar views re such things, albeit using different terminology. (Vajradhara could probably provide more & more accurate details than me re this)-but for instance in vajrayana buddhism such as in Bardo Throdol, ("Tibetan Book of the Dead"), there is the view that at death one's "mind" of course disolves/detaches from body and proceeds through the "bardos" of transition after death where 1 may encounter wonderful or terrifying images which essentially reflect the shape & contents of one's mind, ("the judgment" ala' Christianity). Then if one has adequately embraced/recognized the real basis to one's mind-the "Clear Light" of Mind-one's journey ends there, ("unity with God" ala Christianity?). If not, traditional buddhism speaks of the mindstream beginning the process of rebirth which traditionally may or may not be in the "human" realm. In buddhist cosmology,rebirth could even be to a "heaven" realm, (which reflects spiritual advancement but also reflective of a mindstream still adhering to some degree of "self" identity. They also traditionally view that whole process as taking 49 "Earth days." Have to admit, I'm always more interested personally in the points of commonality and intersection between traditions as opposed to stark differences. I suppose that's because to me those points of intersection may represent some fairly universal truths given their similar insights. Take care, Earl

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Nitai

Hare Krishna


It's an interesting vision and experience you had. I would have some thoughts on this if you don't mind.

Not at all; I always welcome people's thoughts! And welcome to CR if I haven't yet said so!

* Giving up everything for the sake of attaining God is not possible.
* as you honestly admitted you still have some attachments to your pets and family
* the Vedas recommend that we develop a vision that everything and everybody belongs to God
* everything what we have, the situations we in which we find ourselves are all the mercy of God
* in this way we develop detachment from things we have and
* gratefulness to God what is the seed of devotion to God
* actually from what we can become detached if everything belongs to God?

I'll see if I can explain further what I meant... It's not that I felt the need to give up everything for God, but rather that it is my choice whether to love God more than all my memories, family, and pets- to be willing to be transformed into a self that no longer had these things held in her mind. Not that loving any of these was bad at all, but rather that, as in the Christian tradition, I had come to expect that I would retain all my memories and reunite with my family and pets after we all died. And yet in this vision, I returned to God in a more direct sense, and it was not that I was alone, but rather that I was utterly transformed and so the concept of my former relationship to things of this creation were no more. They were simply energy creations glorifying God in an eternal Song of creativity, as was I, unified in God. During this vision, the thought of everything I had ever known, all those I had ever loved, wasn't even in the farthest reaches of my consciousness. My entire consciousness was absorbed in God and this moment and its perfection.

I do believe everything and everyone belongs solely to God. It is a common Christian belief. I am very grateful to Him for all my blessings, and for all creation. And yet I came to the realization that there is a difference between gratefulness and detachment. I can be grateful and still want to hold on to this person, or pet, or whatever, knowing s/he is God's, but being attached to the relationship between myself and him/her- counting on that relationship remaining into eternity. Not sure if that made any sense...

** at one point you will find yourself that you cannot spend your time without thinking and speaking about God

LOL- I think I'm getting to that stage! (Much to the chagrin of my dissertation advisor, who really wishes I'd put it aside for a while and work a bit harder on immediate concerns- putting out the thesis!)