misleading info on books/websites

[ISFP]

hey all

i've been reading a number of sources on Islam and comparatice religion in general, and a surprising number of them list the Bahai Faith as a sect of Islam (specifically a Shia sect).

every Bahai i've talked to has been very clear that Bahai-ism is not a sect of Islam, and yet authors continue to list it as such. is this laziness on thier part, or do many people seriously consider the Bahai Faith to be part of Islam?

[IMSassafras]

ISFP,

Greetings and Allah'u'Abha. I understand your concern. I did some searching for myself and found a site that discredited the value of the Baha'i Faith. Unfortunately, these sites are not hard to find, and a person has to wade through the false sites to find the truthful ones. I would like to post a little what I found and then post a little something from the Baha'i Writtings in response.

Source:
http://www.islamonline.net/iol-engli...2/topnews2.asp
Article Title: U.S. Slaps Sanctions on Three Muslim Countries for 'Religious Intolerance'
Written in 1999

...Earlier this year, the White House criticized Iran for allegedly persecuting adherents of the Baha'i faith and called on President Mohammad Khatami to set free all those jailed for their religious beliefs.
The Islamic republic regards Bahai followers as having abandoned Islam.

And another...

Source:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...rticle01.shtml
Article Title: Bahaites Are Apostates: Al-Azhar
Written in 2003

...The society members wanted to know what Muslim scholars say about their sect.
The academy statement stressed that Baha'iyyah is "totally rejected" and "a heresy that runs counter to all principles of Islam".
It came to underline a similar ruling issued by late Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Sheikh Gad Al-Haq Ali Gad Al-Haq, who said that Baha'iyyah "is a mixture of various religions, sects and philosophies that is good for nothing"...

In response to these allegations, I have included one of many quotes from the writings that may help in clarifing this issue.

Source:
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 365)
Found though a downloadable search engine called Ocean which can be found at www.ocean.com
keywords used: Islam sect

Having expounded the fundamental tenets and ordinances of Islam, and given a detailed exposition of the Bahá'í teachings, supported by various quotations from the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, from the writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and of Mirza Abu'l-Fadl, with special reference to certain Bahá'í laws, and demonstrated that the defendants had, in the light of these statements, actually abjured the Faith of Muhammad, his formal verdict declares in the most unequivocal terms: "The Bahá'í Faith is a new religion, entirely independent, with beliefs, principles and laws of its own, which differ from, and are utterly in conflict with, the beliefs, principles and laws of Islam. No Bahá'í, therefore, can be regarded a Muslim or vice-versa, even as no Buddhist, Brahmin, or Christian can be regarded a Muslim or vice-versa."....
This declaration of portentous significance, which was supported by incontrovertible proofs adduced by the avowed enemies of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh themselves, which was made in a country that aspires to the headship of Islam through the restoration of the Caliphate, and which has received the sanction of the highest ecclesiastical authorities in that country, this official testimony which the leaders of Shí'ah Islam, in both Persia and Iraq, have, through a century, sedulously avoided voicing, and which, once and for all, silences those detractors, including Christian ecclesiastics in the West, who have in the past stigmatized that Faith as a cult, as a Bábí sect and as an offshoot of Islam or represented it as a synthesis of religions -- such a declaration was acclaimed by all Bahá'í communities in the East and in the West as the first Charter of the emancipation of the Cause of Bahá'u'lláh from the fetters of Islamic orthodoxy, the first historic step taken, not by its adherents as might have been expected, but by its adversaries on the road leading to its ultimate and world-wide recognition.

I have read much better examples from both perspectives, but I hope this will help in your understanding.

Basically, a few Islamic groups would like to discredit the Baha'i Faith in anyway they can so the rest of the world, including the Islamic people, will not see the benefit of the Baha'i Faith. They think it would do them great pleasure to see the destruction of this great Religion of God.

The fact is that the Baha'i Faith is accepted by most nations of the world as an independent religion, as well as the people of these nations. Calling the Baha'i Faith a sect of the Islamic religion at this point, would be similar to calling the Christian Religion a sect of Judaism. And the Islamic sites rejecting the Teachings of the Baha'i Faith similar to the Jewish people rejecting the Message of Christ. The Baha'is love Muhammed and celebrate in the words of the Qu'ran as they do all the Manifestations of God and the Holy writings that accompany Them.

I hope this is helpful.

warmly,
Sassafras

[ISFP]

Sassafras-

thank you for your research! i agree with you- i get the impression that those Muslims who attack the Bahai Faith under the umbrella of Islam hope that by labeling it a Muslim heresy (and not an independent religion) their persecution and intollerance of Bahais will be less scrutinized.

"well, it's an issue for the Muslims to work out on their own. no need for us to get involved." seems to be what these ill-wishers will hope the uninformed (now convinced the Bahai Faith is a Muslim sect) will go on their way believing.

the religious oppression in Iran is alarming. recently, a Zoroastrian cemetary which had been in use as late as four years ago was paved over to make room for a recreational park. not kidding.

[I, Brian]

I'm certainly under the impression that Baha'i essentially began within Islam as a "messianic sect" - and that the early adherents were initially Muslim. However, today at least, it is well outside Islamic mainstream.

This is probably why Muslim scholars can be particularly aggressive against Baha'i, in a similar way that mainstream Christians tend to be very aggressive about Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses.

Baha'i today does indeed have a much wider remit, though, and looks to appeal to people of any faith - or lack of - rather than hold itself to being a simple culmination of Islamic theology and prophecy.

[ISFP]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I'm certainly under the impression that Baha'i essentially began within Islam as a "messianic sect" - and that the early adherents were initially Muslim.

wait, didn't Bahaullah proclim the Bahai Faith to be seperate from Islam right off the bat?

[I, Brian]

It's more a case that Baha'i seems to have sprung from within Islam, drawn on Muslims as their original first adherents, and even today Baha'i has strong associations with certain aspects of Muslim culture. That doesn't mean to say that they are an Islamic group - I'm merely pointing out that Baha'i arose within Islam.

Perhaps it is a little like Christianity arising out of Judaism, or Islam from a mixture of both. They are each separate and different, but there are clear associations.

That's all I intended, nothing more.

[ISFP]

Brian-

i'm not Bahai, so i can't really argue for or against your points.

but with the current situation the Bahai Faith faces (and has faced) in Iran, there's a great need to validate the Faith legally and socially as both distinct from Islam and as a valid religion of its own. but i would like to know how Bahais feel about observations that the Bahai Faith 'arose' within Islam, and whether or not this is congruent with how Bahais generally understand themselves and their religion.

but thank you for writing, Brain. points noted.

[I, Brian]

I'm happy to see discussion, and be corrected where necessary.

[IMSassafras]

ISFP and I, Brian,

I am going to find references to support my view, but I want to make sure everyone is set straight that the Baha'i Faith is an independent Religion.

If a person can call Christianity a division or spin-off of Judaism, then I guess they could get away with saying the Baha'i Faith is the same of Islam. But if I were to say that, being a Baha'i, I would feel as though I would be misleading the rest of the world with a very dogmatic agenda.

I, Brian wrote:

Perhaps it is a little like Christianity arising out of Judaism, or Islam from a mixture of both. They are each separate and different, but there are clear associations.

That association has to be better defined. I will try to do my part, and if you could gather something on your point, it would be appreciated.

I, Brian wrote:

I'm certainly under the impression that Baha'i essentially began within Islam as a "messianic sect" - and that the early adherents were initially Muslim. However, today at least, it is well outside Islamic mainstream.

Please explain yourself.

I, Brian wrote:

This is probably why Muslim scholars can be particularly aggressive against Baha'i, in a similar way that mainstream Christians tend to be very aggressive about Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses.

The Baha'i Faith is a New Message of God's Word. The sects of Christianity are the re-wording of a misunderstood message. Please expound.

I hope we will be able to resolve this and arrive to the Truth.

warmly,
Sassafras

[IMSassafras]

ISFP,

Originally Posted by ISFP

...With the current situation the Bahai Faith faces (and has faced) in Iran, there's a great need to validate the Faith legally and socially as both distinct from Islam and as a valid religion of its own. but i would like to know how Bahais feel about observations that the Bahai Faith 'arose' within Islam, and whether or not this is congruent with how Bahais generally understand themselves and their religion.

This is what I found when I searched "Islamic roots" through Ocean. It is not the best of example, but I am sure it will clarify something.

Bahá'í pilgrims found spiritual enrichment of yet another kind in the Holy Places and historic sites that the Guardian acquired -- often at the cost of protracted and wrenching negotiations -- and lovingly restored. Shoghi Effendi was equally responsive to unexpected opportunities that offered themselves to his historical perspective. In 1925, a Sunni Muslim religious court in Egypt denied civil recognition to marriages contracted between Muslim women and Bahá'í men, insisting that "The Bahá'í Faith is a new religion, entirely independent" and that "no Bahá'í, therefore, can be regarded a Muslim" (and therefore qualified to enter into marriage with someone who was).75 Seizing on the larger implications of this apparent defeat, the Guardian made wide use of the court's definitive judgement to reinforce the claim of the Cause in international circles to be an independent Faith, separate and distinct from its Islamic roots.

(Commissioned by The Universal House of Justice, Century of Light, p. 58)

Does this help?

warmly,
Sassafras

[ISFP]

that's very helpful, Sassafras, thank you. and very interesting. (although not terribly hopeful for those Muslim women wishing to marry Bahai men).

another question: is the Bahai Faith ok with inter-religious marriages (between a Bahai and a non-Bahai)?

[IMSassafras]

ISFP,

Yes. Inter-religious and interracial marriages are excepted, and permission from both families are still needed if only one spouse is a Baha'i according to Baha'i Law. If, on the other hand, a couple is already married and one or both wish to become a Baha'i Faith, then permission is not needed.

Glad to answer your questions and many more. God Bless.

warmly
Sassafras

[kiwimac]

I have seen similar comments before & while I understand the socio-political need to differentiate the Baha'is from Shi'ite Islam nonetheless the fact of the matter is that the Baha'i faith springs out of 'twelver' shi'ite theology via Shaykhism and the Babi faith. [1]

It's (the Baha'i Faith) belief in messengers, its view of the prophethood and of the Imamate show its relationship with its parent faith quite clearly [2]. To assert, therefore, that the Baha'i Faith is a sect of Shi'ite islam is to do no disservice to either Islam or the Baha'i Faith.

Notes

[1]: http://www.crystalinks.com/bahai.html

The Baha'i religion originally grew out of the Babi faith, or sect, which was founded in 1844 by Mirza 'Ali Mohammad of Shiraz in Iran.

He proclaimed a spiritual doctrine emphasizing the forthcoming appearance of a new prophet or messenger of God who would overturn old beliefs and customs and usher in a new era. Though new, these beliefs originated in Shi'ite Islam, which believed in the forthcoming return of the 12th imam (successor of Muhammad), who would renew religion and guide the faithful. Mirza 'Ali Mohammad first proclaimed his beliefs in 1844 and assumed the title of the Bab (Persian: "Gateway").

[2]: http://www.northill.demon.co.uk/relstud/shiislam.htm

Islam, Shi`i. The branch of Islam that accepted `Ali ibn Abi-Talib, Muhammad's son-in-law, as the Prophet's legitimate successor. The Twelver Shi`is, the branch of Shi`ism that accepted a line of twelve hereditary successors called Imams, are the majority of modern Shi`is. The Babi and Baha'i Faiths arose in the Twelver Shi`i milieu in Iran and are related in many ways to Shi`i belief, practice, and concepts.

For deep study I recommend

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bhscholr.htm

Juan Cole's resource:

Scholarly Books, Papers and Notes on Shaykhism,
Babism and the Baha'i Faith.


http://tinyurl.com/4hbxa Juan Cole has the following to say:

The Bahá'í manifestation of God, Bahá'u'lláh wrote in Arabic and Persian, and his immediate audience consisted for the most part of nineteenth-century Middle Eastern Muslims. The theological and philosophical ideal familiar to this audience owed a great deal, not only to the Judeo-Christian and Islamic religious traditions, but also to the Greek and Hellenistic philosophical heritage.

For this reason, much of the psychology and cosmology of the Bahá' writings is framed in broadly Aristotelian terms. Their image of the prophet bore a likeness in certain respects to the philosopher king of Plato and al-Farabi. The mystical theology of Plotinus (203-269/70 AD), the founder of Neoplatonism, particularly influenced the cultural context of the Bahá'í writings.

Plotinus taught God's unknowability, the emanation doctrine of creation, and the co-eternity of the universe with God. He also asserted the existence of a Universal Intellect as a metaphysical principle between God and the physical universe. In their own particular manner, the Bahá'í writings affirm many of these ideas, as well.

Please also see Coles'; "Individualism and the Spiritual Path in Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa'i" (Same Url as above)

Kiwimac

[IMSassafras]

Kiwi,

I respect your post. I have to say I don't agree with the things you suggest. I am not sure if I am qualified in giving very indepth information concerning your points of view, because of my lack of knowledge of the Islam Religion, but I'll give it a try.

Since I have the Ocean search engine, I looked up "Twelver" and I didn't find anything that would give me the idea that Baha'u'llah was a Twelver. If you would be so kind to quote the Writtings with something to support this, it would be graciously appreciated.

I do know there are some things Baha'u'llah fits within Islamic Prophecy (as He does in all Religions of God), but I don't remember them all exactly.

What I do know is that Baha'u'llah said:

I am the Promised One of all Religions. If there is a Religion that was forgotten by man, and they had a Promised One, I am Him too.

The Baha'i Faith is not a continuation of the Islam Religion through any sect. It is, on the other hand, the continuation of the Religion of God.

warmly
Sassafras

[kiwimac]

No ImSassafras,

What I said was that the Baha'i faith sprang out of Twelver Shia. Baha'u'llah was probably a Shi'ite before accepting the claims of the Bab but really that is comparatively unimportant. The Baha'i Faith, however, shows a clear line of descent from Shi'ite Islam via Shaykhism just as Christianity shows a very clear line of descent from Judaism.

Why is this knowledge important? Because you can never fully understand the Baha'i teaching on (for example) the Manifestations unless you understand its basis in Shi'ite theology. There are endless resources available both online and in books, it is incumbent on Baha'is (with their belief in an independent search for personal truth) to educate themselves therein or at least so ISTM.

Kiwimac