misleading info on books/websites

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

The Baha'i scriptures number fully 200 volumes, so it would have to be an awfully big book to hold them all! :-)

Maybe it was a DVD :-)

[arthra]

Postmaster wrote:

I've been good thanks arthra, how about you?

My reply:

Well we're doing well here and I'm very happy to hear from you!

Postmaster:

I've had about 3 / 4 phenomenon’s (experiences) connected to the Baha'i faith yet I'm not 100% accepting, yet I feel it's conquered me. Obviously coming from a Christian Orthodox community upbringing in the UK family and friends would consider me a nut, I even asked the question to myself. But you know recently even my parents have loosened up there ideas a lot. I've told my mum about my experiences and she's ok with them. She’s intrigued about how the Magi Zoroastrian priests came to visit Christ when he was born as they had prophesies of the event.

My reply:

These things take time and there's no rush ...

The story of the Magi is an intrigueing one ...

The Bible story of another Persian Cyrus is also a fascinating subject. The Lord "stirred up the spirit of Cyrus" in Ezra 1:1 and he was "the Lord's anointed" in Isaiah 45:1.

When Baha'u'llah was exiled to the Turkish penal colony of Akka for a virtual life imprisonment it was thought He would never survive. He was nonetheless eventually released from the confines of Akka itself and He camped for sometime on Mount Carmel across the Bay from Akka where was a small grove of Cypress trees, the very spot designated by Baha'u'llah where the remains of the Bab were to be enshrined years later.

The Cypress tree is straight, upright, resistant to the cold weather (all signs of strength and upright of character).

Mount Carmel was also where the Elijah triumphed over the priests of Baal.

- Art

[Postmaster]

Thanks for your replies, yesterday night I dumped into a lot of anti-Baha'i material on the net and feel torn by what I read. Especially from a Christian point of view.



Babism was a militant movement looking for revolutionary change, the Bab ordered his followers to rid the king of the day.



The fact that Bahá'u'lláh doesn't qualify as the promised one of the Bab in his writings. And that many made claim to the Babs promised one. Also Bahá'u'lláh exile to Bagdad was voluntary one.



Baha'i's beliefs towards Christianity, the resurrection and the miracles of Christ are viewed as only metaphorical.



No dark force in Baha'i teachings and mans imperfections are by those who do not seek knowledge. Contradictions within the writings of Bahá'u'lláh which are more under critical review due to him writing his own religion up, unlike any of the rest (in this sense history hasn't repeated).



Where are the beautiful angles of Christianity, Judaism and Islam gone?

[BruceDLimber]

Sorry, Scott; I'm not famliar with Breakwell, though 'Abdu'l-Baha's poem was most fascinating!

I have a passing acquaintance with Thornton Chase, the first American to become a Baha'i....

I've sent you the overview and website list, and hope you enjoy them and find them helpful!

Regards, and keep in touch.

Bruce

[IMSassafras]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Sassafrass, hi!

Regarding Baha'i marriage, you said:

S>Yes. Inter-religious and interracial marriages are excepted....

Please note that the word is ACcepted, not EXcepted!

This is quite important as the meanings are virtually opposite!

Bruce

Oops! Yes, of course, I meant to use ACCEPTED. Thank you, Bruce.

I hope this mishap didn't create too much confusion for people.

warmly,
Sassafras

[arthra]

Postmaster

Thanks for your replies, yesterday night I dumped into a lot of anti-Baha'i material on the net and feel torn by what I read. Especially from a Christian point of view.

My reply:

You know Postmaster I for some reason missed this post earleir so wantto apologize for a late response... I have been taking a much needed break from some of my usual haunts like CR. You know when you expose yourself to sites that attack religions whether Baha'i or Christianity etc. it seems we open ourselves to a lot of negativity and so your feeling of being "torn" by what you read is not unusual.

Postmaster:

Babism was a militant movement looking for revolutionary change, the Bab ordered his followers to rid the king of the day.

My response:

The Bab's followers were fulfilling a prophecy of the return of the Twelfth Imam which meant they believed they conducting a Jihad of sorts..They raised a black standard in Khorasan which was part of a prophecy... The early Babis believed in defending themselves with arms. After attacks by mobs and government troops they defended themselves. So this was their militancy, Baha'u'llah later abrogated Jihad and armed resistance in defence of the religion. There was never an order to "rid the king of the day". After the Bab was executed a few Babis did attempt to assassinate the Shah but it was not by order of the Bab. This foolish attempt on the life of the Shah led to a great persecution of the Babis. But there was never an order to assassinate the Shah.

Postmaster:

The fact that Bahá'u'lláh doesn't qualify as the promised one of the Bab in his writings. And that many made claim to the Babs promised one.

My response:

After the Bab was executed there were some claimants to be the promised one just as there were peopel who claimed to be the Messiah about teh time of Christ. Josephus listed about fourteen...so that is nothing new.

The Bab constantly made reference to "Him Whom God would make manifest" and eventually most of His followers came to recognise this was Baha'u'llah. .

Postmaster:

Also Bahá'u'lláh exile to Bagdad was voluntary one.

My reply:

There was an edict issue exiling Baha'u'llah to Bagdad after His imprisonment in the Siyya Chal prison for three month or so. He and His family were granted passage in mid winter to travel across cold and barren terraine to Bagdad.

Postmaster:

Baha'i's beliefs towards Christianity, the resurrection and the miracles of Christ are viewed as only metaphorical.

Reply:

The resurrection of Christ is regarded as a spiritual one and not a physical one... Baha'is accept the virgin birth. We do not deny Christ healing people or other miracles.

Postmaster:

No dark force in Baha'i teachings and mans imperfections are by those who do not seek knowledge. Contradictions within the writings of Bahá'u'lláh which are more under critical review due to him writing his own religion up, unlike any of the rest (in this sense history hasn't repeated).

Reply:

Maybe you could amplify here... what specifically that is referring to.

Postmaster:

Where are the beautiful angles of Christianity, Judaism and Islam gone?

My reply:

You'll find plenty of beautiful angels in the Baha'i Writings:

"Verily, He shall support you by the angels of His holiness and reinforce you with the breaths of the Spirit that ye may mount the Ark of Safety, set forth the evident signs, impart the spirit of life, declare the essence of His commands and precepts, guide the sheep who are straying from the fold in all directions, and give the blessings. Ye have to use every effort in your power and strive earnestly and wisely in this new century. By God, verily the Lord of Hosts is your support, the angels of heaven your assistance, the Holy Spirit your companion and the Center of the Covenant your helper."

______________________

I did want to say that for awhile I won't be posting as much here as I'm in a hiatus for awhile...

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Art>Baha'u'llah ... camped for some time on Mount Carmel across the Bay from Akka where was a small grove of Cypress trees, the very spot designated by Baha'u'llah where the remains of the Bab were to be enshrined years later.

Art>The Cypress tree is straight, upright, resistant to the cold weather (all signs of strength and upright of character.

I don't know whether or not you're aware of this or not, Art, but there are now circles of cypress trees planted at several places in Haifa where Baha'u'llah stood back then!

The easiest to spot (and see right now) is the place you mentioned where Baha'u'llah stood to state where to build the Shrine of the Bab. Look at the pictures of the back (uphill) side of the Shrine and the gardens immediately behind it, and you'll see a small area on the center right side of the picture just behind the Shrine, slightly elevated by a circular brick wall and with about a dozen cypress trees planted in it.

That's the place. :-)

Best,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Thanks for your replies, yesterday night I dumped into a lot of anti-Baha'i material on the net and feel torn by what I read. Especially from a Christian point of view.

Fair warning: a lot of "anti" stuff is like that, whether it's anti-Baha'i, anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim, or anti-Christian! It's basically all negativity, which is (unsurprisingly) quite depressing to read and reflect on! (So choose your sources well!)

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Babism was a militant movement looking for revolutionary change, the Bab ordered his followers to rid the king of the day.

I wouldn't say it was all that "millitant" in itself (though the Babis did defend themseves when attacked, which happened a lot). It's true that the Bab and His teachings represented a _very_ revolutionary change, especially for that time and place!

But the accusation that the Bab ordered anybody killed is a complete lie! He did nothing of the sort.

(There was an incident later on when a few Babis tried to kill the Shah on their own initiative; they failed. Baha'u'llah condemned them strongly for this, and said it was such actions that could hurt Him, not the actions of His opponents!)

Originally Posted by Postmaster

The fact that Bahá'u'lláh doesn't qualify as the promised one of the Bab in his writings. And that many made claim to the Babs promised one. Also Bahá'u'lláh exile to Bagdad was voluntary one.

In fact, He clearly does, as is evinced by the fact that not only did the Bab and Baha'u'llah correspond (including the Bab's sending Baha'u'llah a calligraphy of around 500 variants of the title "Baha" in the shape of a star), but just before His martyrdom, the Bab had His own seals, pen sets, etc. sent to Baha'u'llah. Once again, statements to the contrary are just the creations of the "anti" crowd.

And I think that if you examine the Baha'i Faith and its "fruits," you'll find that, as Jesus mentioned, they do bear out the truth and goodness of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith! This is all the more striking when you compare it with the characters and actions of Baha'u'llah's opponents, in particular Mirza Yahha and his cronies. Added to this is the fact that the Baha'i faith has flourished in many parts of the world and is still enduring and growing after over a century and a half, while the groups of opponents continue to splinter and diminish even in those few cases where they haven't become completely extinct.

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Baha'i's beliefs towards Christianity, the resurrection and the miracles of Christ are viewed as only metaphorical.

The word "only" defilnitely doesn't fit! Baha'is (including Baha'u'llah) fully accept the miracles of Christ! And while some of them probably carried a significant spiritual component (and message) in addition to their physical aspects, this in no way diminishes them.

And Christ's Resurrection is totally real, whether physical or spiritual! (I put it to you that you have to remember His own words about "the flesh inheriting nothing" and the spirit being what's important!)

And if you read the Baha'i scriptures, you'll find them full of praise for Christ, His mission, and Christianity generally! (Please ask us if you don't know where these passages are.)

Originally Posted by Postmaster

No dark force in Baha'i teachings and mans imperfections are by those who do not seek knowledge. Contradictions within the writings of Bahá'u'lláh which are more under critical review due to him writing his own religion up, unlike any of the rest (in this sense history hasn't repeated).

The only "dark force" needed for evil to happen is man's own lower (animal) nature: we're quite capable of doing far more evil ourselves than a "devil" would ever be needed for! And unlike so many other religions, we Baha's don't have a devil to blame things on: the blame and responsibility for any misdeeds rest squarely on each person's own shoulders! ("The devil made me do it" is a definite non-starter from a Baha'i point of view.)

So I put it to you that this makes us Baha'is MORE responisible and involved in promoting goodness, not less! If each person doesn't do this him- or herself, who will?!

And I also assert that there are no "contradictions" in Baha'u'llah's Writings. If you think you see some, please say what they are so we can discuss them.

As to His wrilting our scriptures Himself, all I can say is, "There is progress!" :-)

And "critical review" or no, His Writings continue to spread and flourish--in over 800 different languages, the last I heard!

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I've had about 3 / 4 phenomenon’s (experiences) connected to the Baha'i faith yet I'm not 100% accepting, yet I feel it's conquered me. Obviously coming from a Christian Orthodox community upbringing in the UK family and friends would consider me a nut....

Not to worry: LOTS of us nuts around! :-)

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Where are the beautiful angles of Christianity, Judaism and Islam gone?

If you mean beautiful aspects, they're very much present in the Baha'i Faith, as I think you've begun to notice already! :-)

And if you mean angels, the Baha'i scriptures say (in "The Book of Certitude") that angels are in fact _humans_ who have become completely spiritual! So each and every one of us is potentially an angel. :-)

Many regards, and by all means do keep the questions coming; they're most welcome! :-)

Best,

Bruce

[Seeker_of_truth]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I'm certainly under the impression that Baha'i essentially began within Islam as a "messianic sect" - and that the early adherents were initially Muslim. However, today at least, it is well outside Islamic mainstream.

This is probably why Muslim scholars can be particularly aggressive against Baha'i, in a similar way that mainstream Christians tend to be very aggressive about Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses.

Baha'i today does indeed have a much wider remit, though, and looks to appeal to people of any faith - or lack of - rather than hold itself to being a simple culmination of Islamic theology and prophecy.

Mormons don't claim to be an Independant Faith. Nor do JW.

[kiwimac]

Actually, the Church of Jesus Christ (which was the first name of the undivided LDS church) did indeed believe itself separate from Christianity. Describing itself as being the "Restored Church."

kiwimac

Former LDS Elder

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

Actually, the Church of Jesus Christ (which was the first name of the undivided LDS church) did indeed believe itself separate from Christianity. Describing itself as being the "Restored Church."

kiwimac

Former LDS Elder

I think that's a nuance.

Regards,
Scott

[Mick]

Originally Posted by arthra

I noted your definition of dogma and the list you supplied top-most including:

a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof
* a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative; "he believed all the Marxist dogma"

As the Administrator of this forum and being involved in a lot of these discussions now and with us Baha'is, I was wondering how you personally regard the religions on this forum ..Maybe share what your own convictions are. But perhaps you'd rather not. It's your choice to respond to that.

But I would suggest Baha'is would respond to that above definition of "dogma" that each person must seek the truth for themselves or be involved in what we call the independent investigation of reality. We are not to simply accept a belief because say our family accepts it or because of an authority figure dictates it. So the emphasis to us in the area of belief is on personal search and acceptance rather than dictation.

Along with this personal search for truth is a principle called "consultation" where we consult on matters and attempt to arrive at "truth" or guidance for a particular sitiation.

- Art

Art,

I once, a zillion years ago, had a cousin that had become a Buddhist which prompted a lot of discussions about religion. He suggested that the Baha'i Faith was a "doubt" faith. I liked that. The idea that if we doubt something, we are told to investigate it to find the Truth. It is through doubt that truth will arise. That surely isn't describing a "prescription" of rituals and belief systems, but instead a direction by Baha'u'llah to investigate and consult to arrive at all Truth.

Mick