misleading info on books/websites

[imranshaykh]

In ref to the recantation of the Bab, you have said that from the Bahai point of view, this is an excellent example of hikmat or Wisdom. In Bahai writings this is an allusion of the Shia concept of Taqaiyya or dissimulation or concealing one's faith to protect one's life.

However the points that you have missed out is that:

1. No prophet or divine representative from Allah ever practised Hikmat, even in the way you explain it.

2. Prophets and messengers of Allah never practised dissimulation. Moses never recanted his faith in the face of extreme difficulties, neither did Noah, Mohammed or for that matter, any prophet of Allah. Why was this practise altogether altered for the Bab? Nay, it was not altered. Bab genuinely recanted his claims and it took only a few slaps and a few hits to his feet for him to do that.

The concept of Hikmat exists only in the Bahais and Babi writings and no other writings for this is an extremely useful tool to get out of sticky situations. Take any event, can't explain the rationale? No problem! Blame it on Hikmat!

Secondly, one of my friends has said that nabi 0 rasul - 12th Imam - all mean the same. Sorry, they dont'. The definition of Nai and Rahul and Imam are different. An Imam is an Imam - the representative of a prophet or rasul. No a rasul or a nabi himself. The definitions for these terms have been loosely interpreted by the Bahais the way they see fit.

C'mon can't someone bring any proof that the Bab was the 12th Imam. We have 1,000s of traditions from the Prophet of Islam and the 11 succeeding Imams about the 12th Imam. In fact a count of the traditions will indicate that the issue of the 12th Imam is probably one of most widely discussed accross generations. Can one show even a single instance that Bab was the 12th Imam. I have been writings about this in each of my posts. Prove that the Bab was the 12th Imam.

I have documentary proof, one of which includes the term Dhikrullah, so patiently explained by my friend that indicates that the Bab was not the 12th Imam. In fact Bab names the 12th Imam by his name and title. He pleads and seeks help from the 12th Imam. He said that he was NOT the 12th Imam. What is then the basis of the Bab? Can't the followers of Bahaullah bring even one documentary proof to indicate that the Bab - the "great forerunner" of the Bahai faith is what he is claimed to be?

C'mon bring some proof.

Lastly, as regards the miracle of Mohammed, the Quran is not the only miracle of Mohamed - it is the final everlasting miracle of Mohammed.

During his lifetime, Mohammed brought out 1,000s of miracles, feats which are not possible to be done by any mortal - these miracles were to prove his divine connection. So we had stones, animals, trees etc who testified to Mohammed. We had the splitting of the moon, the returning of the sun as his miracles which are recorded in the books of history and are undeniable. At this point in time, in the absence of Mohammed, the Quran remains the everlasting miracle.

In the same manner, there must be miracles reported apart from the writings of Bab and Baha to prove their divine connection. And the miracle must be such which cannot be repeated till end of time by any mortal.

Any person can bring volumes of writings, like the Bab claimed his miracle was (refer to his examination at Tabriz) especially when they are peppered with mistakes and errors. Even the most basic gramatical laws were not followed by the Bab.

Which divine book or representative has behaved as the Bab? None. Why? Because the Bab was a mere mortal. Not a prophet or an Imam as the Bahais claim.

If you yet believe that he was the 12th Imam. Prove it. With documentary proof.

Warm regards
Imran Shaykh

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Hello, Imran!

You are quite mistaken that Azal was the Bab's successor! He was appointed simply as a place-holder, if you like, until the time when Baha'u'llah formally announced himself (possibly to divert attention from Baha'u'llah until that time). Further, his own actions make it clear he was hardly of God!

And as was already pointed out, the Azalis have been totally extinct for some time, whereas God-ordained Faiths survive and endure, including the Baha'i Faith! . . .

Peace,

Bruce

Very convenient. Again an interpretation of the Bab's action when there is no proof to that effect.

Who says that Subhe' Azal was only a place holder. Bab did not say so. Bab appointed Subhe' Azal and then passed away. The followers of Bab should have followed the Bab in letter and in spirit. They should have followed Subhe' Azal.

The fact the Subhe' Azal was not fit to be Bab's succesor, is a problem for Bab and the followers of the Bab. It only goes to prove my point that the Babi and the Bahai Faith are suspect.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

It only goes to prove my point that the Babi and the Bahai Faith are suspect.

CR does not allow members of one Faith to directly challenge the members of another Faith - if you wish to ask questions and discuss issues of the Baha'i faith, then you are welcome to ask - but this is not a place to attack anybody's beliefs.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

In ref to the recantation of the Bab, you have said that from the Bahai point of view, this is an excellent example of hikmat or Wisdom. In Bahai writings this is an allusion of the Shia concept of Taqaiyya or dissimulation or concealing one's faith to protect one's life.

However the points that you have missed out is that:

1. No prophet or divine representative from Allah ever practised Hikmat, even in the way you explain it.

2. Prophets and messengers of Allah never practised dissimulation. Moses never recanted his faith in the face of extreme difficulties, neither did Noah, Mohammed or for that matter, any prophet of Allah. Why was this practise altogether altered for the Bab? Nay, it was not altered. Bab genuinely recanted his claims and it took only a few slaps and a few hits to his feet for him to do that.

The concept of Hikmat exists only in the Bahais and Babi writings and no other writings for this is an extremely useful tool to get out of sticky situations. Take any event, can't explain the rationale? No problem! Blame it on Hikmat!

Secondly, one of my friends has said that nabi 0 rasul - 12th Imam - all mean the same. Sorry, they dont'. The definition of Nai and Rahul and Imam are different. An Imam is an Imam - the representative of a prophet or rasul. No a rasul or a nabi himself. The definitions for these terms have been loosely interpreted by the Bahais the way they see fit.

C'mon can't someone bring any proof that the Bab was the 12th Imam. We have 1,000s of traditions from the Prophet of Islam and the 11 succeeding Imams about the 12th Imam. In fact a count of the traditions will indicate that the issue of the 12th Imam is probably one of most widely discussed accross generations. Can one show even a single instance that Bab was the 12th Imam. I have been writings about this in each of my posts. Prove that the Bab was the 12th Imam.

I have documentary proof, one of which includes the term Dhikrullah, so patiently explained by my friend that indicates that the Bab was not the 12th Imam. In fact Bab names the 12th Imam by his name and title. He pleads and seeks help from the 12th Imam. He said that he was NOT the 12th Imam. What is then the basis of the Bab? Can't the followers of Bahaullah bring even one documentary proof to indicate that the Bab - the "great forerunner" of the Bahai faith is what he is claimed to be?

C'mon bring some proof.

Lastly, as regards the miracle of Mohammed, the Quran is not the only miracle of Mohamed - it is the final everlasting miracle of Mohammed.

During his lifetime, Mohammed brought out 1,000s of miracles, feats which are not possible to be done by any mortal - these miracles were to prove his divine connection. So we had stones, animals, trees etc who testified to Mohammed. We had the splitting of the moon, the returning of the sun as his miracles which are recorded in the books of history and are undeniable. At this point in time, in the absence of Mohammed, the Quran remains the everlasting miracle.

In the same manner, there must be miracles reported apart from the writings of Bab and Baha to prove their divine connection. And the miracle must be such which cannot be repeated till end of time by any mortal.

Any person can bring volumes of writings, like the Bab claimed his miracle was (refer to his examination at Tabriz) especially when they are peppered with mistakes and errors. Even the most basic gramatical laws were not followed by the Bab.

Which divine book or representative has behaved as the Bab? None. Why? Because the Bab was a mere mortal. Not a prophet or an Imam as the Bahais claim.

If you yet believe that he was the 12th Imam. Prove it. With documentary proof.

Warm regards
Imran Shaykh

1.) You are ignoring the example of Jesus that I gave you.

2.) The Bab dissimulated nothing.

THe proof is in His own words. Like it or not. Can you prove from the Gospel and the Torah that Muhammed is Who He claims to be? Betcha can't, not that I challenge for an instant Muhammed's station as Apostle of God.

Brian may be correct, if you are challenging this and ignoring the answers, then its not a discussion. Though I hope he removes nothing to this point.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

1.) You are ignoring the example of Jesus that I gave you.

2.) The Bab dissimulated nothing.

THe proof is in His own words. Like it or not. Can you prove from the Gospel and the Torah that Muhammed is Who He claims to be? Betcha can't, not that I challenge for an instant Muhammed's station as Apostle of God.

Brian may be correct, if you are challenging this and ignoring the answers, then its not a discussion. Though I hope he removes nothing to this point.

Regards,
Scott

Sorry, forgot to mention: Subh'i Azal (Mirza Yahya) was not appointed He Whom God Shall Make Manifest. The appearance that of Apostle of God would be self-evident. It was.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

CR does not allow members of one Faith to directly challenge the members of another Faith - if you wish to ask questions and discuss issues of the Baha'i faith, then you are welcome to ask - but this is not a place to attack anybody's beliefs.

Noted. Absolutely.

Respectfully yours,

Imran Shaykh

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

1.) You are ignoring the example of Jesus that I gave you.

You will need to emmunerate the example of Jesus. I am not aware of the incident.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

2.) The Bab dissimulated nothing.

But he recanted his faith. On numerous occasions. There are apology letters in the writings of the Bab in which he clearly says that he erred and his claims were all untrue. Are you aware of this?

Please answer yes or no. If yes, does this make any difference to your Faith? In my view, it should.

If no, then I can send you the links.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

THe proof is in His own words. Like it or not. Can you prove from the Gospel and the Torah that Muhammed is Who He claims to be? Betcha can't, not that I challenge for an instant Muhammed's station as Apostle of God.

The answer to that is yes and no. The proof is in his words - but which words?
The one in which Bab claimed to be the Gate?
Or the one in which he claimed to be the 12th Imam?
Or the one in which he accepts the station of the 12 Imams and pleads his case with them?
Or the one in which he claimed to be God?
Or the one in which he recanted all of these?
Or the ones which are completely full or errors and contradictions?

Tell me my friend, which ones? (I have original extracts for each of these in original persian and arabic and trust me I understand the languages!)

One must study the life history of Mohammed to verify how the Jews settled in Medina - why? Because they found in their books that a Prophet whose religion would be the last would settle there.

One of the miracles of the Quran lies in the knowledge that it shares about the previous prophets. Mohammed was untaught by any mortal. Never went to any mortal school. Yet, he was able to describe in great detail the conditions and the life history of the prophets. This was proof that he was sent by the same God that sent Moses and Christ. The Jews and Christian scholars across barriers accepted him as the Promised One of their books. There is sufficient documentary proof about this.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Brian may be correct, if you are challenging this and ignoring the answers, then its not a discussion. Though I hope he removes nothing to this point.

I think I have been replying to all questions. Yes, I will challenge the argument if I find it weak. I think that is the purpose of having a discussion forum. And yes, I expect answers to my questions as well.

I will repeat my question again.

The foundation of the Bahai religion stands on the basis that Bab was the prophesized 12th Imam. The Holy Prophet prophesized that Islam would come to an end (and be followed by the Day of Judgement) by the advent of the 12th Imam. There is no mention of a new dispensation in Islam (as there was in Jewish and Christian scriptures). On the contrary, the Holy Prophet always specified that Islam would continue till the Day of Judgement. The Quran would be the final word of God till the Day of Judgement.

Hence the only way to justify the coming of Bahaullah and to establish that it is the next dispensation after Islam is to prove that Islam was completed as a religion. Hence the need to establish Bab as the 12th Imam.

Also remember, if there were no Bab, there would have been no Baha. The position of Bab needs to be clarified. We must understand the genesis and the root before moving to the fruit of the tree.

Now the question once again. What is the documentary proof that Bab was actually the 12th Imam?

Brian had asked me why I raised this question at multiple times in my posts. The reason for this is that I did not receive any replies. So was the Bab the 12th Imam?

Respectfully yours,
Imran Shaykh

Regards,
Scott[/quote]

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

You will need to emmunerate the example of Jesus. I am not aware of the incident.



But he recanted his faith. On numerous occasions. There are apology letters in the writings of the Bab in which he clearly says that he erred and his claims were all untrue. Are you aware of this?

Please answer yes or no. If yes, does this make any difference to your Faith? In my view, it should.

If no, then I can send you the links.
------------------------



The answer to that is yes and no. The proof is in his words - but which words?
The one in which Bab claimed to be the Gate?
Or the one in which he claimed to be the 12th Imam?
Or the one in which he accepts the station of the 12 Imams and pleads his case with them?
Or the one in which he claimed to be God?
Or the one in which he recanted all of these?
Or the ones which are completely full or errors and contradictions?

Tell me my friend, which ones? (I have original extracts for each of these in original persian and arabic and trust me I understand the languages!)

One must study the life history of Mohammed to verify how the Jews settled in Medina - why? Because they found in their books that a Prophet whose religion would be the last would settle there.

One of the miracles of the Quran lies in the knowledge that it shares about the previous prophets. Mohammed was untaught by any mortal. Never went to any mortal school. Yet, he was able to describe in great detail the conditions and the life history of the prophets. This was proof that he was sent by the same God that sent Moses and Christ. The Jews and Christian scholars across barriers accepted him as the Promised One of their books. There is sufficient documentary proof about this.



I think I have been replying to all questions. Yes, I will challenge the argument if I find it weak. I think that is the purpose of having a discussion forum. And yes, I expect answers to my questions as well.

I will repeat my question again.

The foundation of the Bahai religion stands on the basis that Bab was the prophesized 12th Imam. The Holy Prophet prophesized that Islam would come to an end (and be followed by the Day of Judgement) by the advent of the 12th Imam. There is no mention of a new dispensation in Islam (as there was in Jewish and Christian scriptures). On the contrary, the Holy Prophet always specified that Islam would continue till the Day of Judgement. The Quran would be the final word of God till the Day of Judgement.

Hence the only way to justify the coming of Bahaullah and to establish that it is the next dispensation after Islam is to prove that Islam was completed as a religion. Hence the need to establish Bab as the 12th Imam.

Also remember, if there were no Bab, there would have been no Baha. The position of Bab needs to be clarified. We must understand the genesis and the root before moving to the fruit of the tree.

Now the question once again. What is the documentary proof that Bab was actually the 12th Imam?

Brian had asked me why I raised this question at multiple times in my posts. The reason for this is that I did not receive any replies. So was the Bab the 12th Imam?

Respectfully yours,
Imran Shaykh

Regards,
Scott

[/quote]
------------------------------------
As to the Gospel:
11And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.


12And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

13Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? 14And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly. Matthew 27, 11-14
-----------------
"
The answer to that is yes and no. The proof is in his words - but which words?
The one in which Bab claimed to be the Gate? ` He was the Gate.
Or the one in which he claimed to be the 12th Imam? He was the 12th Imam
Or the one in which he accepts the station of the 12 Imams and pleads his case with them? He was the station of the Imams
Or the one in which he claimed to be God? Show me where, in His own words IN A REPUTABLE SOURCE He claimed to be God
Or the one in which he recanted all of these? He did not recant.
Or the ones which are completely full or errors and contradictions? If it was full of error and contradiction, the source is suspect.

Tell me my friend, which ones? (I have original extracts for each of these in original persian and arabic and trust me I understand the languages!)"

I have a good study of all extant records of the supposed recantations at hand. Each is correlated and the various statements attributed Him are cross related to each documkent to see where the words are repeated and where they are not repeated. Its a useful survey of the documents.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

------------------------------------
As to the Gospel:
11And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.


12And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

13Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? 14And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly. Matthew 27, 11-14
-----------------
"
The answer to that is yes and no. The proof is in his words - but which words?
The one in which Bab claimed to be the Gate? ` He was the Gate.
Or the one in which he claimed to be the 12th Imam? He was the 12th Imam
Or the one in which he accepts the station of the 12 Imams and pleads his case with them? He was the station of the Imams
Or the one in which he claimed to be God? Show me where, in His own words IN A REPUTABLE SOURCE He claimed to be God
Or the one in which he recanted all of these? He did not recant.
Or the ones which are completely full or errors and contradictions? If it was full of error and contradiction, the source is suspect.

Tell me my friend, which ones? (I have original extracts for each of these in original persian and arabic and trust me I understand the languages!)"

I have a good study of all extant records of the supposed recantations at hand. Each is correlated and the various statements attributed Him are cross related to each documkent to see where the words are repeated and where they are not repeated. Its a useful survey of the documents.

Regards,
Scott[/quote]

According to you, Bab was the 12th Imam AND the Gate to the 12th Imam? you mean to say that Bab was a Gate unto himself? He was the medium to his own self. He prayed for his own coming?

As expected, I have been treated with a response that borders on blind faith. There are no references to back any of your arguments.


But that is now how I will present my case. My case is backed with references - not from my books but from yours.

In the book of Dalaelus Sabah, page 47 authored by the Bab, he confirms the Tablet of Fatemah and confirms that part about the 12th Imam.

You may raise the issue that he was merely talking about himself. No he is'nt. Because the entire tablet mentions the name of each Imam along with the genealogy. The Mohammed mentioned in the tablet is the son of Imam Hasan Askari, the 11th Imam of the Shias.

The link to the same in JPG format is: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/arep...l/sabih047.jpg

Please not the link is not from bahaiawareness.com - but from an authentic Bahai web site.

Once again, read the book of Sahifae Adaliya, page 27 authored by the Bab, wherein he mentions the name of each of the 12 Imams ending with Hujjat al Qaem Mohammed ibnil Hasan (The Proof, The Upright, Mohammed the son of Hasan). Yes, the same Imam Hasan as mentioned in the above reference.

The link for the same is: http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint...adl/adl027.jpg

When I mentioned that Bab acknowledged the station of the Imams, I did not mean that he was the station himself! In the above reference, Bab begs for favours from the 12 Imams. He acknowledges their "status" and begs favours from them.

In a single post, I have provided you with 2 links - each indicating that Bab did not consider himself to be the the 12th Imam - He acknowledged that Mohammed, the son of Imam Hasan is the awaited 12th Imam.

But his followers do not wish to believe him. They choose to nominate him to a post which he did not claim for himself. Now one can ask - Who is this Hujjat Al Qaem, Mohammed Ibnil Hasan who Bab mentions in his books.

I hope you will follow my example and provide me with some links, some books, some proofs.....if not from my books, then atleast from your books to indicate that Bab was the 12th Imam.

Answer this and then and then only will I send you the link for the book in which Bab claimed to be God - again from a Bahai web site. Also the link for the recantation in pure unadulterated Arabic/Persian by the Bab.

Respectfully yours,
Imran Shaykh

[imranshaykh]

As regards to your quotes about Jesus - while I have yet to check the references and as I mentioned, I am not familiar with the background of the event.

Having said that, Jesus merely kept quiet. He did not lie or confirm what was being said about him. This is different from Jesus claiming to be something that he was'nt. Or if he said something and then blamed it on Hikmat.

Nay, it is very different from Bab's case. Bab unfortunately did not keep quiet. He kept on blabbering in the court of the Shah. Kept getting contradicted.

We could do a wonderful discussion on the examination of the Bab at Tabriz. It is one of my favourite incidents. But at some other time. I first need to know who is Hujjat Al Qaem Mohammed ibnil Hasan to whom the Bab sought favous from (refer to my earlier post with links to the references)

Regards
Imran Shaykh

Warm regards

[arthra]

By the way Imran...

for some reason those sites above you cite don't come across on my browser. They appear to be academic sites. Another site I use is the Baha'i Academic Research Library which is a good site but not itself an official Baha'i site

I think you've established in your recent posts here and elsewhere in my view that you are fairly hostile to Baha'i Faith, this is probably because of where you come from and your orientation. You began with some general questions... These were responded to and then you promote your Baha'i Awareness site which is antagonistic to the Baha'i Faith.

I think as far though as your interest in what the Bab proclaimed Himself to be in a general sense is dealt with in the following from a study by Dr. Darius Shahrokh, M.D. :


"The Bab, accompanied by His uncle, arrived. A sudden hush descended upon the crowd as if you could hear a pin drop. The Imam-Jum'ih was seated on top of the twelve-step marble pulpit. He invited the Bab to climb the pulpit. The Bab went on the first step but Imam-Jum'ih invited Him to come higher so He climbed a couple more steps. There He denied being a representative, emissary, or gate to the Twelfth Imam. You should realize that He did not deny Who He was. Earlier I mentioned that according to Shi'ites, -after the Twelfth Imam disappeared, he sent four gates or emissaries. So the Bab denied being another gate to the Twelfth Imam. He was the Twelfth Imam, or the Qa'im Himself, and also a Gate to Baha'u'llah. Following that pronouncement, which temporarily calmed the crowd, He wished to stay for the prayer but the Imam-Jum'ih requested that it would be preferable if He offered His prayer at home with His family. He was afraid that after the prayer, the mob might harm the Bab."

Edward Sell mentioned about E.G. Browne that

"He divides the Bab's first adherents into several classes. Firstly, rigorous and pious Muhammadans, who really believed that the signs of the twelfth Imam were fulfilled in him; secondly, all those who desired reform in Persia, and thought that Babiism would conduce to that end; thirdly, the mystics, who considered Babiism to be similar to their own pantheistic system; fourthly, those who were drawn by the personal influence and character of the Bab."

Thus understandings about Who the Bab was varied according who you asked or referred to..

There are also varied versions of early Babi history and some are slanted various ways.. because it was a persecuted religion and many attempts were made to abolish it, so it is not an easy task for historians to study.

The Baha'i Faith continues to be outlawed and proscribed and misrepresented.

- Art

[Popeyesays]

Dear Irman,

Here is a question for you.

If, the court as seems to be the fact, offered the Bab His life in return for a recantation.
If indeed in the opinion of the Crown Prince of Persia and his court the Bab did indeed recant His claim.


Why was He executed?

This leads me to believe that the documents in question are largely forgeries, done after the fact to make the clerics and the politicians look good after they had committed an execution.

If I answer as a "true believer" and this attracts the derision of opponents to my faith, then those opponents must fear in their hearts that they are NOT true believers in their faith. Otherwise they would never scorn someone for belief.

By the way, I though you had agreed to not challenge the Baha`i Faith on the Baha`i board as the administrator demanded.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Hello Art,

Your inference that I do not have a positive inclination towards the Bahai Faith is correct. However that is not due to the Faith itself. I find a general denial of its followers to references from their own books which are not in conformity with what they want to hear.

You wish to believe that the Bab was the 12th Imam. Fair enough. however to make your point, you bring me quotations from 2 historians. None of them were present when the respective announcements were made. Their observations from what they have heard or seen led them to infer what they wanted to infer.

On the other hand, I bring 2 two quotations - in the language of the Bab from his own books in which he clearly marks out that he was not the 12th Imam. he names Mohammed, the son of Imam Hasan (the 11th Imam of the Shiites) as the Imam.

But we do not want to accept that.

Secondly, you acknowledge that the 12th Imam "dissappeared". You are correct. He went into occultation - he did not die as the previous Imams and prophets nor did he ascend to the heavens as Jesus did. The traditions mention that the 12th Imam will "re-appear". Not that he will be "re-born" as the Bab was.

This acknowledgement itself on your behalf weakens the argument that the Bab was the 12th Imam. Also, if he were the 12th Imam, he should have alluded to the previous 4 representatives of Gates to the 12th Imam. One needs to read through the letters received and communicated to the 4 deputies to understand that Bab had no connection with any of the deputies. He was "born" about 1,000 years after the passing away of the 4th deputy. If he were the 12th Imam, he should have given some clues as to what he was doing for past 1,000 years. Right? But he did'nt.

But forget about all that. One needs to question that Bab himself. As I have given you in the 2 references, Bab himself acknowledged Mohammed Hujjat Ibnil Hasan as the last in the line of Imams. Who was this Hujjat ibnil Hasan? Read all my posts. This is what I have been seeking a response to.

Again, if the Bab was the 12th Imam, then his position needs to be understood. He onus of proof must lie upon the Bahais who make the claim. They must prove that the Bab was the 12th Imam. For if they cannot, Bab has no position. The foundation of his faith crumbles and along with it the Bahai Faith as well.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

PS: I understand that the references are from a web site that are not in your links. But you must book mark it. It is a fantastic web site for academic purposes and I salute them for preserving the words of the Bab for people like us who wish to make an independent study of the Faith.

[Popeyesays]

Does this document closely resemble the document you presented (in English translation)?

B.

The second document, unsigned and undated, is apparently in the Báb's handwriting and consists of a complete recantation and renunciation of any superhuman claim which he may have advanced or have appeared to advance. There is nothing to show to whom it is addressed, or whether it is the recantation referred to in the last paragraph of the preceding document or another. The handwriting, though graceful, is not easily legible, and the text appears to run as follows:

[fourteen lines of ARABIC TEXT]



[blank page]



IV.FIVE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS257

[eight lines of ARABIC TEXT]

(Translation.)

"May my life be thy sacrifice! Praise be to God such as He deserves and merits, in that He hath caused the Manifestations of His Grace and Mercy under all circumstances to comprehend all of His servants. Praise be to God, and again praise, that He hath deigned to make one like your Excellency1 the source of His Clemency and Mercy, by the manifestation of whose kindness He hath pardoned His servants, cast a veil over sinners, and shown mercy to the transgressors. I take God to witness on His part that this weak servant never intended aught contrary to the good pleasure of the Lord of the World and the Company of Saints. Although my very existence is in itself utterly faulty, yet since my heart firmly believes in the unity of God (glorious in His mention), and the Prophethood of His Apostle, and the Saintship of the Community of Saints, and since my tongue acknowledgeth all

1 The title might equally be rendered "Highness," "Holiness," "Reverence," etc. according to the station of the person addressed.



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258that hath been revealed on the part of God, I hope for His Mercy. Never have I desired aught contrary to the Will of God, and, if words contrary to His good pleasure have flowed from my pen, my object was not disobedience, and in any case I repent and ask forgiveness of Him. This servant has absolutely no knowledge connected with any claim. I ask forgiveness of God my Lord and I repent unto Him of that there should be ascribed to me any Mission. As for certain prayers and words which have flowed from my tongue, these do not imply any such Mission (amr), and any claim to any special vicegerency for His Holiness the Proof of God (on whom be Peace!) is a purely baseless claim, such as this servant has never put forward, nay, nor any claim like unto it. Therefore it is thus hoped from the clemency of His Imperial Majesty and of Your Excellency, that they will exalt the head of him who continually prays for them by the favours and graces of their clement and compassionate court. Farewell."

In this document He said He was not the Gate, He did not say, however, what He was. He remained mute on that, just as Jesus did.

Regards,

Scott

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

The link to the same in JPG format is: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/arep...l/sabih047.jpg

Please not the link is not from bahaiawareness.com - but from an authentic Bahai web site.

This is not a "Baha'i" website.

This is at a university in Michigan- specifically with Dr. Juan Cole at the helm. Dr. Juan Cole is not a Baha'i - at best he is a respected scholar in the field of study which includes the Baha'i Faith. As pointed out elsewhere Dr. Cole has used material of uncertain substantiation believing he can seperate fact from fiction, even intentional deception, through scholarly effort. This is a venue fraught with error and challenge. Moreover precisely because he is a scholar he should be completely capable of adapting to changing answers to the question "Is this true?" One minute the evidence points one way, the next minute it points another way. Often the evidence will point to both and other things at the same time. Scholars love this kind of stuff. This is not an arena for average people - one can easily take what to them is a limited statement of one thing in particular and generalize or say something that would be improper because of misunderstanding. You post a link about something there you are hoping it will be true next minute and next decade. What if you are shown to rely on liars? The Nuq. Qaf document you rely on your website is exactly such a document. It is clearly not what it pretends to be - even the people you post this link from acknowledge that. It may well have elements that are original but how to know what is and isn't? Someday some fragment may past all levels of evidence and be accepted but that day is not today.

The Baha'i Institutions use the highest standards of trustworthiness when refering to documents. Chains of authenticity and ownership on originals bind the document to the past and to the hand that wrote them and the voice that spoke the words. The history books refered to by Baha'is have that kind of evidence supporting them. Not papers wandering from buyer to seller, transcribed on the fly to sell to the next bidder.

Even the Qur'an hasn't passed the levels of evidence the Baha'i Scriptures have - while each Surah is clearly original and beyond question, there was open debate as to the order of the Surahs and is part of the basis of the split between the Sunni and Shi divisions of Islam (not to mention other issues the split the Sunni and Shi into further divisions like exactly which of the descendents of Muhammad through Fatimah are indeed Imams and which aren't?)