misleading info on books/websites

[IMSassafras]

Kiwimac,

Thank you for your assertiveness. I certainly agree with you I must learn all I can on Baha'i history.

How close to the Faith are you, Kiwimac? You seem to know a lot.

As you pointed out Christianity shows a clear line of decent from Judaism, and since Christianity and Judaism are Independent Religions, and that you pointed out the Baha'i Faith shows a line of decent from Islam, then do you belief the Baha'i Faith could very well be an Independent Religion like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam?

warmly,
Sassafras

[kiwimac]

IM,

It is clear, I think, that the Baha'i faith is indeed an independent religion in as much as any religion is truly independent. As an example, Many of the comcepts central to Christianity, the saviour figure, the place of evil in the cosmos, the compassion of God are also central in post-exilic Judaism, that is, Judaism that has been impacted by Zoroastrianism / Zurvanism.

All religions inevitably impact each other, not just in the lives of their followers but also in the interplay between the political / hierarchical figures inherent in each religion, ie. Popes, Bishops, Imams, Mobeds, Gurus etc.

As for my relationship with the Baha'i faith, I am a former Bahai, now a Christian Theologian.

Kiwimac

[I, Brian]

Hopefully Kiwimac's detailed pointers help explain my comments better than I may on this tired night.

[smkolins]

Much observation has been made of the parallel of Christianity from Judaism and the Baha'i Faith from Islam. But little energy has been spent on the Christianity/Judaism formulation. One specific instance may serve to illustrate both the relationship and distinction: Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

In one sentence Judaism is linked and distinguished from Christianity. It is, I believe, that very way, that these religions are each linked and seperated. The promise is destinguished from and related to the fullfilment, albeit from the point of view of heaven, there is but one flow of the divine. A similar point of view can been seen from the side of fulfillment, but from the point of view of the promise, fullfilment can never be part of the promise.

[imranshaykh]

I read through all the replies and the threads before deciding to put in my reply.

The foundation of the Bahai Faith lies in the forerunner Bab. if there were no Bab then there would be no Baha simply because the Bab was the only one who actually "prophesized" about Bahaullah (though a deeper study of Babi writings will reveal that Bab actually nominated Subhe Azal as his successor and not Bahaullah. However leave that aside. Lets assume that he did nominate Bahaullah).

The foundation of the Babi Faith lies in the Islamic belief in the appearance of the 12th Imam or Divine Leader. The ****e belief in 12 Imams begins with Hazrat Ali (as) - the son-in-law of the Holy Prophet (saw) and continues with his sons, Hasan and Hussain. This chain continues with 9 sons in succession from the progeny of Hussain. The lats being the Mahdi or the 12th Imam who was born on 15th Shabaan 255 AH and went into occultation in 260 AH. Islamic traditions indicate that Islam will be completed and the promise of Allah fulfilled by he appearance of the 12th Imam who will fill the arth with justice and equality. This Imam is prophesized to re-appear at the end of time.

The Bab in 1844 first claimed to be a gate or the medium through which the hidden Imam could be met. Then he claimed to be the 12th Imam and finally he claimed to be God (www.bahaiawareness.com)

The entire basis of Bab's claim rests on the assumption that he was the 12th Imam and by his appearance Islam was completed and hence paved the way for Bahaullah to stake claim to a new religion.

However....however....the claims of Bab need to be examined for their veracity and truth. A study of Babi literature will show that Bab actually claimed to be the medium through which the 12th imam could be met. Why did he then claim to be the 12th imam. How come none of the prophecies about the 12th imam were fulfilled by his appearance. How come injustice and inequality were not obliterated by his appearance.

These are some of the questions for my Bahai friends. There is no running away or denying that the role of the Bab on whom the entire Bahai Faith rests is suspect.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I read through all the replies and the threads before deciding to put in my <Snip for brevity>
However....however....the claims of Bab need to be examined for their veracity and truth. A study of Babi literature will show that Bab actually claimed to be the medium through which the 12th imam could be met. Why did he then claim to be the 12th imam. How come none of the prophecies about the 12th imam were fulfilled by his appearance. How come injustice and inequality were not obliterated by his appearance.

These are some of the questions for my Bahai friends. There is no running away or denying that the role of the Bab on whom the entire Bahai Faith rests is suspect.

The Bab claimed to be the Gate to the Imam in 1844. Later He claimed to be "The Remembrance of God" (Dikh'rullah), then He claimed to be the Primal Point (Nuqta). All these claims were carefully measured and the progression of claims has to be considered all at once.

The Bab was in a very precarious position in Persia at that time and the orchestration of advancing claims kept Him free to proclaim His mission for a longer period of time than if He had laid claim to His Own Revelation in the first place.

If you like, I would be happy to expand this answer.

"FEAR ye God and breathe not a word concerning His Most Great Remembrance other than what hath been ordained by God, inasmuch as We have established a separate covenant regarding Him with every Prophet and His followers. Indeed, We have not sent any Messenger without this binding covenant and We do not, of a truth, pass judgement upon anything except after the covenant of Him Who is the Supreme Gate hath been established. Ere long the veil shall be lifted from your eyes at the appointed time. Ye shall then behold the sublime Remembrance of God, unclouded and vivid."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 46)
"For who else but God can reveal to a man such clear and manifest verses as overpower all the learned? Since thou hast acknowledged the revelation of Muhammad, the Apostle of God, then there is no other way open before thee but to testify that whatever is revealed by the Primal Point hath also proceeded from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Is it not true that the Qur'án hath been sent down from God and that all men are powerless before its revelation? Likewise these words have also been revealed by God, if thou dost but perceive. What is there in the Bayan which keepeth thee back from recognizing these verses as being sent forth by God, the Inaccessible, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious?"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 31)



Regards,
Scott

[arthra]

Hello!

I also had a few comments to make here regarding Imran's post..If I may call you Imran?

imranshaykh wrote:

I read through all the replies and the threads before deciding to put in my reply.

The foundation of the Bahai Faith lies in the forerunner Bab. if there were no Bab then there would be no Baha simply because the Bab was the only one who actually "prophesized" about Bahaullah (though a deeper study of Babi writings will reveal that Bab actually nominated Subhe Azal as his successor and not Bahaullah. However leave that aside. Lets assume that he did nominate Bahaullah).

My comment:

Baha'is agree that the Nominee of the Bab was Subh-i-Azal as the leader of the Babis after the Bab's martyrdom (1850 C.E.)... so Subh-i-Azal had this leadership and nomination and the Babis respected that... There was turmoil though because of the persecutions and such and Subh-i-Azal forbade people to recognize him publically as he was afraid that he himself could be identified perhaps and suffer execution... In the Bayan the Bab revealed that "Him Whom God would make manifest" would appear and be the next Manifestation of God with authority to abrogate the laws and ordinances mentioned in His writings. It was on this fulfillment as being "Him Whom God would make manifest" of the Bab's prophecy that Baha'u'llah claimed to be and so it had nothing to do really with the nomination of the Bab mentioned earlier which was accepted. So most Babis became Baha'is and those who did not accept the calim of Baha'u'llah became known as "Azalis"... The Azalis continued awhile in Iran and there may be some remaining... however the last known Azali wrote around the mid forties and I haven't personally heard of any Azalis since about that time.

imranshaykh wrote:

The foundation of the Babi Faith lies in the Islamic belief in the appearance of the 12th Imam or Divine Leader. The ****e belief in 12 Imams begins with Hazrat Ali (as) - the son-in-law of the Holy Prophet (saw) and continues with his sons, Hasan and Hussain. This chain continues with 9 sons in succession from the progeny of Hussain. The lats being the Mahdi or the 12th Imam who was born on 15th Shabaan 255 AH and went into occultation in 260 AH. Islamic traditions indicate that Islam will be completed and the promise of Allah fulfilled by he appearance of the 12th Imam who will fill the arth with justice and equality. This Imam is prophesized to re-appear at the end of time.

The Bab in 1844 first claimed to be a gate or the medium through which the hidden Imam could be met. Then he claimed to be the 12th Imam and finally he claimed to be God (www.bahaiawareness.com)

My comment:

I think as far as it goes regarding Shiah Islam you are correct...The last Imam was supposed to have disappeared according to our belief around 260 AH and the Proclamation of the Bab was around 1260 AH or 1844 in the Christian calendar and a thousand years after the disappearance of the Twelfth Imam.

The site you refer to though (Baha'i Awareness) is one that we feel is antagonistic to the Baha'i Faith and represents the views of Shiahs who have opposed our Faith and refuse to recognize it as a legal entity in Iran and I believe misrepresented it. So to us it is not a neutral or impartial view.

Imran:

The entire basis of Bab's claim rests on the assumption that he was the 12th Imam and by his appearance Islam was completed and hence paved the way for Bahaullah to stake claim to a new religion.

My comment:

For Baha'is the Bab is accepted as a Manifestation of God Who fulfilled not only the expectation of the Twelfth Imam in Shiah Islam but the Return of Christ as well and the Imam Mahdi... so in our view it is not "the entire basis of Bab's claim".

Imran:

However....however....the claims of Bab need to be examined for their veracity and truth. A study of Babi literature will show that Bab actually claimed to be the medium through which the 12th imam could be met. Why did he then claim to be the 12th imam. How come none of the prophecies about the 12th imam were fulfilled by his appearance. How come injustice and inequality were not obliterated by his appearance.

Comment:

I alluded to some of these prophecies in my other response to you on the other thread.

As to obliterating inequality and injustice in the Baha'i view this largely has been dealt with in the Principles taught by Baha'u'llah dealing with the equality of men and women and the elimination of racial prejudice as well as the principle that there should be a world parliament and an international court of arbitration which is at least partially coming to be realized today. Another principle of Baha'u'llah is that the extremes of wealth and poverty should be eliminated.

Imran wrote:

These are some of the questions for my Bahai friends. There is no running away or denying that the role of the Bab on whom the entire Bahai Faith rests is suspect.

My comment:

This may be your view that the Baha'i Faith is "suspect" and you are welcome to investigate it for yourself. If we can assist you let us know.

In friendship,

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Sassafrass, hi!

Regarding Baha'i marriage, you said:

S>Yes. Inter-religious and interracial marriages are excepted....

Please note that the word is ACcepted, not EXcepted!

This is quite important as the meanings are virtually opposite!

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Hello, Imran!

You are quite mistaken that Azal was the Bab's successor! He was appointed simply as a place-holder, if you like, until the time when Baha'u'llah formally announced himself (possibly to divert attention from Baha'u'llah until that time). Further, his own actions make it clear he was hardly of God!

And as was already pointed out, the Azalis have been totally extinct for some time, whereas God-ordained Faiths survive and endure, including the Baha'i Faith! . . .

Peace,

Bruce

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Hello, Imran!

You are quite mistaken that Azal was the Bab's successor! He was appointed simply as a place-holder, if you like, until the time when Baha'u'llah formally announced himself (possibly to divert attention from Baha'u'llah until that time). Further, his own actions make it clear he was hardly of God!

And as was already pointed out, the Azalis have been totally extinct for some time, whereas God-ordained Faiths survive and endure, including the Baha'i Faith! . . .

Peace,

Bruce

The Dawnbreakers records that the Bab was in communication with Baha`u'llah as His execution approached. In letters amongst Baha`u'llah, Baha`u'llah's full brother Musa and another leading Babi of the day they agreed withthe Bab that Subhi Azal should be named in authority to the degree that Subhi Azal was to act as a mail center for the friends, so communications might go through him for dissemination, and that he had the responsibility to pass on the writings of the Bab to the communities in Persia after the death of the Bab. This would permit Baha`u'llah to guide the Babi's with a degree of occultation.

This is supported by the fact that upon the Bab's death His box of pens, seals, inks and paper were transmitted not to Subhi Azal, but to Baha`u'llah with a tablet addressed to Baha`u'llah which was a highly calligraphed repetition of the Arabic word "Baha" five hundred times.

There was no such gift or missive to Subhi Azal.

Subhi Azal was so personally fearful of his life that he failed miserably at disseminating the writings of the Bab, actually hiding the packets away in a hole rather than risk being caught with them. When he made his way to Baghdad he immediately went into hiding in the home of Baha`u'llah and did not let anyone see him.

These are not the actions of a committed inheritor to the authority of the Bab. Especially when it is compared to the actions of Baha`u'llah.

Regards,
Scott

[smkolins]

It should be noted, as hinted at by Bruce, that the position of figure head was a passing phase in the Babi Faith. It ended and passed away and those who beleived it held enduring value were lost within that generation.

There were several details and phases to this process but it all ended by the time Baha'u'llah arrived in Akka, and from then on the majority of the Baha'i Scriptures were written and even within the lifetime of Baha'u'llah, the majority of His followers established, and the Successorship established for 'Abdu'l-Baha, and the Covenant preserved in fulling Baha'u'llahs plan for the House of Justice.

Returning to the theme of the thread, the basic question is where does a religion come from - is it fundamentally derivative of the circumstances and social forces around it or is it fundamentally distinct from them. To the extent it is derivative one religion grows from another. To the extent it is independent one religion come from God. But such is God's plan that all the religions hold the seed of connection with the next in the form of prophecies. Prophecies themselves, however, are not the same as the Revelation given to the Founder of a Faith.

[imranshaykh]

Why was there progression of claims and faith only for Bab? We Muslims believe in 124000 prophets. None of them showed any prograssion in claims. Mohammed was a prophet and messenger. So was Moses and Ibrahim and all other prophets. None of them had any progression. Only Bab??

And what is the meaning of Dhikrullah? And Nuqta? What do they mean? You explain it to me in simple language if you understand. And what about his claim of being the 12th Imam?

Secondly, no prophet ever recanted his claims. Why was this ignomy only for the Bab? Refer to the incident of the Questioning of the Bab at Tabriz.

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Hello!

I also had a few comments to make here regarding Imran's post..If I may call you Imran?

Please feel free to call me Imran!

Originally Posted by arthra

My comment:

Baha'is agree that the Nominee of the Bab was Subh-i-Azal as the leader of the Babis after the Bab's martyrdom (1850 C.E.)... so Subh-i-Azal had this leadership and nomination and the Babis respected that... There was turmoil though because of the persecutions and such and Subh-i-Azal forbade people to recognize him publically as he was afraid that he himself could be identified perhaps and suffer execution... In the Bayan the Bab revealed that "Him Whom God would make manifest" would appear and be the next Manifestation of God with authority to abrogate the laws and ordinances mentioned in His writings. It was on this fulfillment as being "Him Whom God would make manifest" of the Bab's prophecy that Baha'u'llah claimed to be and so it had nothing to do really with the nomination of the Bab mentioned earlier which was accepted. So most Babis became Baha'is and those who did not accept the calim of Baha'u'llah became known as "Azalis"... The Azalis continued awhile in Iran and there may be some remaining... however the last known Azali wrote around the mid forties and I haven't personally heard of any Azalis since about that time.

What is the proof that the prophecy that Him Whom Good would make manifest (the correct term in Arabic is Man Yazharahullaho) is Bahaullah. It could be referring to the 12th Imam as well. Given that Bab claimed to be a gate to the 12th Imam? (Refer Bahaiawareness.com)

Originally Posted by arthra

My comment:

I think as far as it goes regarding Shiah Islam you are correct...The last Imam was supposed to have disappeared according to our belief around 260 AH and the Proclamation of the Bab was around 1260 AH or 1844 in the Christian calendar and a thousand years after the disappearance of the Twelfth Imam.

The site you refer to though (Baha'i Awareness) is one that we feel is antagonistic to the Baha'i Faith and represents the views of Shiahs who have opposed our Faith and refuse to recognize it as a legal entity in Iran and I believe misrepresented it. So to us it is not a neutral or impartial view.

So? Is the Bab as per your beliefs the same 12th Imam who was prophesized by the Holy Prophet of Islam and the succeeding 11 Imams? This is a very important question, so please think carefully and reply. I have already mentioned that the foundation of the Bahai faith lies in proving the Bab was the 12th Imam.

Secondly, the comment on www.bahaiwareness.com is unfair. Just because you do not like what he writes/says, it does not mean that you dismiss him. If it is an intellectual battle, argue with intelligence. Disprove his points. So what if it comes out of Shiahs. Are they not worthy of your guidance? I see that www.bahaiwareness.com pokes holes in your books and brings references that few Bahais have heard of. You dont like it? Point out where has gone wrong. I find him quite neutral. He argues every point with a reference from a Bahai or Babi book which is a characteristic missing in the Bahais at this forum.

Let me put this in a challenge. If the Bab was the 12th Imam, please prove from Islamic sources that he was the 12th Imam. Or accept that he was'nt in which Islam is not over as a religion.

Imran:

The entire basis of Bab's claim rests on the assumption that he was the 12th Imam and by his appearance Islam was completed and hence paved the way for Bahaullah to stake claim to a new religion.

Originally Posted by arthra

My comment:

For Baha'is the Bab is accepted as a Manifestation of God Who fulfilled not only the expectation of the Twelfth Imam in Shiah Islam but the Return of Christ as well and the Imam Mahdi... so in our view it is not "the entire basis of Bab's claim".

Can you please put across any quotation from Bab from the Bab's books to prove that he was what you claim. I do not want to hear Shoghi's viewpoint. He was'nt around when Bab was. Lets hear Bab say this.

I repeat once again. Prove that the Bab was the hidden 12th Imam who was awaited. Prove it. Dont just talk about it or accept it blindly. Let see some signs/characteristics which the Bab exhibited which prove that he was the 12th Imam. I repreat, prove it.

Imran:

However....however....the claims of Bab need to be examined for their veracity and truth. A study of Babi literature will show that Bab actually claimed to be the medium through which the 12th imam could be met. Why did he then claim to be the 12th imam. How come none of the prophecies about the 12th imam were fulfilled by his appearance. How come injustice and inequality were not obliterated by his appearance.

Originally Posted by arthra

Comment:

I alluded to some of these prophecies in my other response to you on the other thread.

As to obliterating inequality and injustice in the Baha'i view this largely has been dealt with in the Principles taught by Baha'u'llah dealing with the equality of men and women and the elimination of racial prejudice as well as the principle that there should be a world parliament and an international court of arbitration which is at least partially coming to be realized today. Another principle of Baha'u'llah is that the extremes of wealth and poverty should be eliminated.

I am sorry, but this response forces me to comment that your argument is very weak. The prophecies say that Justice and Equality will be established DURING the lifetime of the 12th Imam and not that someone WOULD come and talk about it and perhaps we see it in a phased manner over 150 years!

Why do we need Baha to tell us about justice and equality when we all belive in it anyway. You dont have to be a Muslim or Christian or a Bahai to belive in Justice and Equality. But yes, we do have to belive in a day which is prophesized when justice and equality will be the guiding force. Injustice will be obliterated. And this will happen in the lifetime of the Mahdi - the 12th Imam.



Imran wrote:

These are some of the questions for my Bahai friends. There is no running away or denying that the role of the Bab on whom the entire Bahai Faith rests is suspect.

Originally Posted by arthra

My comment:

This may be your view that the Baha'i Faith is "suspect" and you are welcome to investigate it for yourself. If we can assist you let us know.

I am trying to investigate the Faith. But all I get from Bahais is sweet talk and no replies to my points. The Bahais believe in independent investigation of the truth, yet I have found no other who are so bound with dogma and what the UHJ dishes out for them. Over the past 150 years, the Bab's "official" position has shifted atleast 4 times. How come no one questioned it. And when someone did - www.bahaiawareness.com, you label it as prejudiced. Sorry, I do not think that www.bahaiwareness.com is prejudiced. I think the Bahais are. I apologise for sounding harsh, but I am going to call a spade a spade.

In terms of trying to assist. Let me know if the Bab was the 12th Imam of the Muslims. Secondly prove it to me. I will welcome ex-Muslim Bahais who have an understanding to Islam to join me in this debate. I have only one condition - tak with references from books. I will do the same.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Why was there progression of claims and faith only for Bab? We Muslims believe in 124000 prophets. None of them showed any prograssion in claims. Mohammed was a prophet and messenger. So was Moses and Ibrahim and all other prophets. None of them had any progression. Only Bab??

And what is the meaning of Dhikrullah? And Nuqta? What do they mean? You explain it to me in simple language if you understand. And what about his claim of being the 12th Imam?

Secondly, no prophet ever recanted his claims. Why was this ignomy only for the Bab? Refer to the incident of the Questioning of the Bab at Tabriz.

Dear Irmanshaykh,

Dhikrullah means "Remembrance of God". The Bab uses this in reference to Hmself in this passage and many others:
""FEAR ye God and breathe not a word concerning His Most Great Remembrance other than what hath been ordained by God, inasmuch as We have established a separate covenant regarding Him with every Prophet and His followers. Indeed, We have not sent any Messenger without this binding covenant and We do not, of a truth, pass judgement upon anything except after the covenant of Him Who is the Supreme Gate hath been established. Ere long the veil shall be lifted from your eyes at the appointed time. Ye shall then behold the sublime Remembrance of God, unclouded and vivid."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 46)

"Nuqta" Means the Primal Point, as in the First of Creation, it is also a reference to the diacritical mark on the first letter of the Qur'an. He sues it in reference to Himself in this passage and many others:
"For who else but God can reveal to a man such clear and manifest verses as overpower all the learned? Since thou hast acknowledged the revelation of Muhammad, the Apostle of God, then there is no other way open before thee but to testify that whatever is revealed by the Primal Point hath also proceeded from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Is it not true that the Qur'án hath been sent down from God and that all men are powerless before its revelation? Likewise these words have also been revealed by God, if thou dost but perceive. What is there in the Bayan which keepeth thee back from recognizing these verses as being sent forth by God, the Inaccessible, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious?"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 31)

As to "why the progression of claims": In the Baha`i point of view this is an excellent example of wisdom "Hikmat". The Bab was making not just a claim to be a prophet (nabi), but a claim to be the bearer of a new Dispensation (Rasul). In that place and time, such an immediate claim would have resulted in His death by fatwa much more quickly than the six years He was able to teach and proclaim.

As to the "recantation", it just is another example of Hikmat. He could say, "No, I am not the mouthpiece of the twelfth Imam" with perfect truthfulness, because He was actually claiming to be the "Twelfth Imam" metaphorically and the Qa'im in actuality. The original purpose of the court was to make sure He was not claiming to be the gate to the Imam, and the court was happy enough, and complacent enough to be satisfied with that disclaimer. This was not the incident in Tabriz - which may have been a forgery, cedrtainly the are a half-dozen "records" of the event and they differ greatly in what is recorded. And ALL but one of those records was kept by the court which would cedrtainly be happy if the Bab were a lunatic. The single record of Babi source was from a second-hand witness who was at the door of the chamber, but not inside to see and hear well.

I would also note that the court had the Bab examined by a European doctor to determine His sanity, and the doctor ruled Him perfectly sane.

So there was no recantation of His claim to be Rasul and Nabi. The whole "trial" in Tabriz bears remarkable resemblance to the trials of Christ before Herod and Pilate. When accused of being the Messiah, Christ said: "You say I am." Which was another perfect example of Hikmat.

Regards,

Scott

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Please feel free to call me Imran!



What is the proof that the prophecy that Him Whom Good would make manifest (the correct term in Arabic is Man Yazharahullaho) is Bahaullah. It could be referring to the 12th Imam as well. Given that Bab claimed to be a gate to the 12th Imam? (Refer Bahaiawareness.com)

When Muhammed was asked for proof of His revelation He pointed to the Qur'an and challenged anyone to write a verse comparable. When asked the same question, Baha`u'llah replied:
"From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: "Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise." He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 49)

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

So? Is the Bab as per your beliefs the same 12th Imam who was prophesized by the Holy Prophet of Islam and the succeeding 11 Imams? This is a very important question, so please think carefully and reply. I have already mentioned that the foundation of the Bahai faith lies in proving the Bab was the 12th Imam.

Dear Irman,
He was the 12th Imam - a nabi - different body, same spirit. He was also the Remembrance of God and the Primal Point (Rasul).

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Secondly, the comment on www.bahaiwareness.com is unfair. Just because you do not like what he writes/says, it does not mean that you dismiss him. If it is an intellectual battle, argue with intelligence. Disprove his points. So what if it comes out of Shiahs. Are they not worthy of your guidance? I see that www.bahaiwareness.com pokes holes in your books and brings references that few Bahais have heard of. You dont like it? Point out where has gone wrong. I find him quite neutral. He argues every point with a reference from a Bahai or Babi book which is a characteristic missing in the Bahais at this forum.

Let me put this in a challenge. If the Bab was the 12th Imam, please prove from Islamic sources that he was the 12th Imam. Or accept that he was'nt in which Islam is not over as a religion.

Dear Imran,

Who said Islam was over as a religion? Is Christianity over as a religion? Is Zoroastrianism over as a religion? Patently not, neither is al-Islam. The Bab makes a claim, answer it for yourself.
"VERILY We made the revelation of verses to be a testimony for Our message unto you. Can ye produce a single letter to match these verses? Bring forth, then, your proofs, if ye be of those who can discern the one true God. I solemnly affirm before God, should all men and spirits combine to compose the like of one chapter of this Book, they would surely fail, even though they were to assist one another.[1]
[1 cf. Qur'án 17:90] 44
O concourse of divines! Fear God from this day onwards in the views ye advance, for He Who is Our Remembrance in your midst, and Who cometh from Us, is, in very truth, the Judge and Witness. Turn away from that which ye lay hold of, and which the Book of God, the True One, hath not sanctioned, for on the Day of Resurrection ye shall, upon the Bridge, be, in very truth, held answerable for the position ye occupied.... And unto you We have sent down this Book which truly none can mistake...
O concourse of the people of the Book! Fear ye God and pride not yourselves in your learning. Follow ye the Book which His Remembrance hath revealed in praise of God, the True One. He Who is the Eternal Truth beareth me witness, whoso followeth this Book hath indeed followed all the past Scriptures which have been sent down from heaven by God, the Sovereign Truth. Verily, He is well informed of what ye do... Such as are the true followers of Islam would say: 'O Lord our God! We have hearkened to the call of Thy Remembrance and obeyed Him. Forgive us our sins. Thou art, verily, the Eternal Truth, and unto Thee, our infallible Retreat, must we all return.'[1] Chapter II.
[1 cf. Qur'án 2:285 ]"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 43)

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

The entire basis of Bab's claim rests on the assumption that he was the 12th Imam and by his appearance Islam was completed and hence paved the way for Bahaullah to stake claim to a new religion.



Can you please put across any quotation from Bab from the Bab's books to prove that he was what you claim. I do not want to hear Shoghi's viewpoint. He was'nt around when Bab was. Lets hear Bab say this.

I repeat once again. Prove that the Bab was the hidden 12th Imam who was awaited. Prove it. Dont just talk about it or accept it blindly. Let see some signs/characteristics which the Bab exhibited which prove that he was the 12th Imam. I repreat, prove it.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Look to the passage above. The proof is in the person of the Bab. The proof is in the writings of the Bab. Every human soul has the obligation to look at the claim, consider the proof and decide for himself and no other what the truth is.

Imran:

However....however....the claims of Bab need to be examined for their veracity and truth. A study of Babi literature will show that Bab actually claimed to be the medium through which the 12th imam could be met. Why did he then claim to be the 12th imam. How come none of the prophecies about the 12th imam were fulfilled by his appearance. How come injustice and inequality were not obliterated by his appearance ..

Dear Imran, This sounds very similar to the accusations of the Sanhedrin against Jesus, son of Mary, as recorded in the Injeel, does it not? Were the Sanhedrin correct in their charges?

Regards,

Scott