Miracles, THE ULTIMATE CHALLENGE

[Mohsin]

The best thing about Qur'an is that it's language is still alive. Arabic has the title for having several meanings out of a single word for example, Alaq(also means a clot of blood, a leach like substance, something that clings. In this case, all are correct). If you are doubting those, go confirm. Your query that why the language is not so clear, then you should realize that there is a depth in meaning in it. The more you research, the more you will find. Also, it is this complex and deep languague that has made impossible to produce something like it. By the way, english is only the translation and in many cases, the translations are not similar(not in meaning, but in context or words).

[Mohsin]

Miracle # 4: OCEANOLOGY

BARRIER BETWEEN SWEET AND SALT WATERS

“He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together: Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress.” [Al-Qur’an 55:19-20]

In the Arabic text the word barzakh means a barrier or a partition. This barrier, however, is not a physical partition. The Arabic word maraja literally means ‘they both meet and mix with each other’. Early commentators of the Qur’an were unable to explain the two opposite meanings for the two bodies of water, i.e. they meet and mix, and at the same time there is a barrier between them. Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity and density(Principles of Oceanography, Davis, pp. 92-93). Oceanologists are now in a better position to explain this verse. There is a slanted unseen water barrier between the two seas through which water from one sea passes to the other. But when the water from one sea enters the other sea, it loses its distinctive characteristic and becomes homogenized with the other water. In a way this barrier serves as a transitional homogenizing area for the two waters. This phenomenon is also mentioned in the following verse of the Qur'an:

“And made a separating bar between the two bodies of flowing water?” [Al-Qur’an 27:61]

This phenomenon occurs in several places, including the divider between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Ocean at Gibralter. A white bar can also be clearly seen at Cape Point, Cape Peninsula, South Africa where the Atlantic Ocean meets the Indian Ocean. But when the Qur’an speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier.

“It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: one palatable and sweet, and the other salty and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, and a partition that is forbidden to be passed. [Al-Qur’an 25:53]

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from that found in places where two salt water seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers.”(Oceanography, Gross.p.242. Also see Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp.300-301). This partition (zone of separation) has a salinity different from both the fresh water and the salt water(Oceanography, Gross.p.244. Also see Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp.300-301). This phenomenon occurs in several places, including Egypt, where the river Nile flows into the Mediterranean Sea. These scientific phenomena mentioned in the Qur’an was also confirmed by Dr. William Hay, a wellknown marine scientist and Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, U.S.A.
For picturial representation, view this link http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm

DARKNESS IN DEPTHS OF OCEAN

Prof. Durga Rao is a world renowned expert in the field of Marine Geology and was a professor at King Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah. He was asked to comment on the following verse:

“Or (the Unbelievers’ state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow(waves) topped by billow(waves), topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!” [Al-Qur’an 24:40]

Prof. Rao said that scientists have only now been able to confirm, with the help of modern equipment, that there is darkness in the depths of the ocean. Humans are unable to dive unaided underwater for more than 20 to 30 metres, and cannot survive in the deep oceanic regions at a depth of more than 200 metres. This verse does not refer to all seas because not every sea can be described as having accumulated darkness layered one over another. It refers especially to a deep sea or deep ocean, as the Qur’an says, “darkness in a vast deep ocean”. This layered darkness in a deep ocean is the result of two causes:

1. A light ray is composed of seven colours seen in the rainbow. These seven colours are Violet, Indigo, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange and Red (VIBGYOR). The light ray undergoes refraction when it hits water. The upper 10 to 15 metres of water absorb the red colour. Therefore, if a diver is 25 metres under water and gets wounded, he would not be able to see the red colour of his blood, because the red colour does not reach this depth. Similarly, orange rays are absorbed at 30 to 50 metres, yellow at 50 to 100 metres, green at 100 to 200 metres, and finally, blue beyond 200 metres and violet and indigo above 200 metres. Due to successive disappearance of colour, one layer after another, the ocean progressively becomes darker, i.e. darkness takes place in layers of light. Below a depth of 1000 meters there is complete darkness.(Oceans, Elder and Pernetta, p.27.)

2. The sun’s rays are absorbed by clouds which in turn scatter light rays thus causing a layer of darkness under the clouds. This is the first layer of darkness. When light rays reach the surface of the ocean they are reflected by the wave surface giving it a shiny appearance. Therefore, it is the waves which reflect light and cause darkness. The unreflected light penetrates into the depths of the ocean. Thus, the ocean has two parts. The surface characterized by light and warmth and the depth characterized by darkness. The surface is further separated from the deep part of the ocean by waves. The internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because the deep waters have a higher density than the waters above them. The darkness begins below the internal waves. Even the fish in the depths of the ocean cannot see; their only source of light is from their own bodies.
The Qur’an describes this aptly: “Darkness in a vast deep ocean overwhelmed with waves topped by waves”. In other words, above these waves there are more types of waves, i.e. those found on the surface of the ocean. The Qur’anic verse continues, “topped by (dark) clouds; depths of darkness, one above another.” These clouds as explained are barriers one over the other that further cause darkness by absorption of colours at different levels.

Prof. Durga Rao concluded by saying, “1400 years ago a normal human being could not explain this phenomenon in so much detail. Thus the information must have come from a supernatural source”.
For picturial representation, view the link http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-f.htm

[samabudhi]

ROFL!!!
How ironic that I'm being drowned out by more miracles about none other than, YES, OCEANOLOGY!

The best thing about Qur'an is that it's language is still alive. Arabic has the title for having several meanings out of a single word for example, Alaq(also means a clot of blood, a leach like substance, something that clings. In this case, all are correct).

The best thing about the Qur'an is that the language is ambiguous you mean. How fortunate. I'd definitely choose it for divine revelation in that case!

[Vajradhara]

Salaam Moshin,

i would be curious to hear your reasons for denying the other religions claims to miracles and therefore, their "proof" of relevation.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

I have come across several people who say that religion is blind and that miracles are unscientific and thus believing in them is illogical.

Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong. Spiritual interaction is only possible between spirits. Claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not truths.

If the medieval practices and the medieval beliefs of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that are based on superstitions were eliminated, then we could start building a rational and logical belief system that is based on truth and an understanding of spirituality. This is the value of truthfulness and rationality.

Namaste,
Kurt

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

The best thing about the Qur'an is that the language is ambiguous you mean. How fortunate. I'd definitely choose it for divine revelation in that case!

I think you'll find it more a point of expressiveness, rather than complete ambiguity. The English language itself requires context, and even then different wordx and phrases can be read to have different interpretations.

[Mohsin]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Salaam Moshin,

i would be curious to hear your reasons for denying the other religions claims to miracles and therefore, their "proof" of relevation.

Walaikum-as-Salam
I though I already answered that. I am not at all denying the divine nature of any of the religious scriptures. It is a firm belief of a Muslim that Allah sent down Messangers and Prophets to all the nations, but they were for there time and for there people and Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) is the last and final messanger and is for the entire world. We, by name only know twenty five prophets and four scriptures as they are mentioned in the Qur'an. It is also in Islam that there were about 1,24,000 Prophets and Messanges sent to this world. So, may be these scirpture can be from these prophets but we cannot claim this for sure. If I have doubted the divine nature of any scripture, I appologize for it. I never mean't to do that. I hope that this satisfies.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

Walaikum-as-Salam
Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) is the last and final messanger and is for the entire world.

As long as the world exists there will always be new messengers of Allah/God.
The spirit, when the mind is in mental stasis, can at times connect with the Supreme Spirit, as evidenced by messengers. (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Ahmad, Bahaulla, etc.) The mind's ability to interpret this connection and messages is often deficient, hence we have the creation of various religions.

Please peruse the Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam. http://www.alislam.org/books/philosophy/index.html
In The Philosophy of the Oaths of the Holy Quran paragraph 7 & 8 state:

As six hundred years had passed after the time of Jesus, and no recipient of revelation had appeared during the interval. The whole world had been corrupted. The history of every country shows that before the advent of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, falsehood had become current throughout the world. Why did this happen? This happened because divine revelation had been held back for a long time and the kingdom of heaven had fallen into the hands of human reason alone. No one is unaware of the corruption in which the people were involved by following defective reason. Thus when the rain of revelation did not descend for a period, the water of reason dried up.

So in these oaths God Almighty draws attention to this firm and eternal law of nature and calls for reflection upon it that all the vegetation of the earth depends upon the water of heaven. Thus, for the hidden law that governs divine revelation the obvious law of nature is a witness. Then try to derive benefit from the testimony of this witness and do not make reason alone your guide, for it is not a water that can continue without heavenly water. As it is a characteristic of heavenly water that it pulls up the water of all the wells, whether it falls directly into a well or not, in the same way, when a recipient of divine revelation appears in the world then, whether a wise person follows him or not, reason is illumined and clarified to a degree not witnessed before. People begin to search for the truth and their faculty of reflection is stirred up from the unseen. Thus, all this upsurge of reason and of the heart is initiated by the blessed advent of the recipient of divine revelation and the waters of the earth are pulled up by it. So, when you find that everyone has started a search for religion and an upsurge has stirred earthly waters, then rise up and be warned and know for certain that heavy rain has fallen from heaven and that the water of divine revelation has fallen upon a human heart.

Islam, Bahaism, Sikhism and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Communities could combine their resources and be the leaders of a new vision of unity. Yet it is ironic that these four faiths who have been founded by the latest messengers of God argue amongst themselves for the right to be the correct one.

Kurt

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I think you'll find it more a point of expressiveness, rather than complete ambiguity. The English language itself requires context, and even then different world and phrases can be read to have different interpretations.

Fair enough, but then why try to argue that it is absolute and flawless when it is accepted that it is ambiguous.
And why would God choose a medium which was subject to such interpretation? He should have engrained his ideas in our mind. We should be born believing in God.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

We should be born believing in God.

Now that in itself is a very interesting comment - I'll start a new thread on that.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Fair enough, but then why try to argue that it is absolute and flawless when it is accepted that it is ambiguous.
And why would God choose a medium which was subject to such interpretation? He should have engrained his ideas in our mind. We should be born believing in God.

If God meddled in the affairs of mankind then we would be born believing in God, but God never has and never will interfere with anything in the physical universe. God is spirit.

[Vajradhara]

Salaam Mohsin,

thank you for the response.

Originally Posted by Mohsin

Walaikum-as-Salam
I though I already answered that. I am not at all denying the divine nature of any of the religious scriptures. It is a firm belief of a Muslim that Allah sent down Messangers and Prophets to all the nations, but they were for there time and for there people and Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) is the last and final messanger and is for the entire world. We, by name only know twenty five prophets and four scriptures as they are mentioned in the Qur'an. It is also in Islam that there were about 1,24,000 Prophets and Messanges sent to this world. So, may be these scirpture can be from these prophets but we cannot claim this for sure. If I have doubted the divine nature of any scripture, I appologize for it. I never mean't to do that. I hope that this satisfies.

let me ask you this... why do you say that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last Messenger or Prophet?

is revelation, now, effectively sealed?

[Mohsin]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Salaam Mohsin,

thank you for the response.

let me ask you this... why do you say that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last Messenger or Prophet?

is revelation, now, effectively sealed?

Walaikum-as-Salam

Read the reply in Khatmayyat thread. Allah states this in the Qur'an.

"Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Apostle of ALLAH and the Last of the Prophets". ( 33 : 40 ) Al-Quran.

There are articals that I came across regarding the end of days. People are pointing out the Hadiths that are also going true to the conditions and events of the world today. There would be no more prophets after Muhammad(P.B.U.H) and Qur'an is the final revelation. That is the Islamic belief.

kkawolh, please do not get offended, but please do not reffer to certain sites which are by those who claim false prophacy. The site you mentioned about is of a guy who is the founder of Quadiyanniat or Ahmadism(what ever they may call it). He was paid by the British to deviate the people from Islam by claiming prophecy. Where I live, the government had rightfully declaired his followers as a non-Muslim minority. Do you actully know how this person died? He died while he was excavating his bowels in the toilet. Imagine a prophet, or someone even close to Allah(SWT) deserving such a death. There are books and books written against this guy and his beliefs. By the way, such believers of false ideologies can never be brought into logical grounds. I hope this does not change the subject of this thread.

I would just like to say to samabudhi that if he thinks that I, or anyone else is playing with words, then he should consult someone who knows Arabic. There are millions of non-Muslims in Arab countries. Arabic is there mother language. Even they will not argu with this fact.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

Allah states this in the Qur'an.

"Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Apostle of ALLAH and the Last of the Prophets". ( 33 : 40 ) Al-Quran..

Sorry, but ALLAH does not state anything in the Qur’an and Muhammad was NOT the last messenger of Allah. If you want to call Muhammad the last prophet, so be it; mankind has no need for any more prophets. Prophecies are the illusions of man. ALL writings in the “Holy Books” (Torah, Bible Qur’an) were by fallible men. Muhammad, Jesus, Abraham, Moses, etc. are alive today as spirit and they are now a part of Allah/God. (see picture on my site below) They were messengers whose mind interpreted their spirit’s interaction with the Spirit of God. The message has merit but also is open to misinterpretation by the messenger, hence we have religious divergence.

There are articals that I came across regarding the end of days. People are pointing out the Hadiths that are also going true to the conditions and events of the world today. There would be no more prophets after Muhammad(P.B.U.H) and Qur'an is the final revelation. That is the Islamic belief.

If the Islamic belief is based on a final revelation then it is incorrect. Allah is not restricted by man’s beliefs and there will always be spiritual interactions with Allah as long as mankind exists. The end days will never be, except the end of days for each person upon their death…but it is the end days for prophets.

Where I live, the government had rightfully declared his followers (the founder of Quadiyanniat or Ahmad) a non-Muslim minority. Do you actually know how this person died? He died while he was excavating his bowels in the toilet. Imagine a prophet, or someone even close to Allah(SWT) deserving such a death. There are books and books written against this guy and his beliefs. By the way, such believers of false ideologies can never be brought into logical grounds.

Wow, so if a so-called prophet dies while on the toilet, he should not be considered a Prophet? I have heard of other reasons, but this one takes the cake…and a government has a right to declare a messenger of Allah illegitimate? Such believers of false ideologies can never be brought into logical grounds? Logical?

Most of the beliefs of Christians, Jews and Muslims has remained in the Dark Ages and is shrouded by superstitions. True logic in these beliefs is an oxymoron. Try thinking for yourself instead of for those who have brain-washed and conditioned you.

Allah is not encumbered by human attributes and has NO needs or desires. Allah does not need to be worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified by man, or anything else that mankind has to offer. It is also the human characteristics and attributes that exercise upon others: power, control, dominance, destruction, punishment, revenge, and judgment. The destruction of civilizations, most sufferings and premature deaths are due to human frailties, stupidity or imperfections and are not Allah's doings. Allah exists in a spiritual realm and never has and never will interfere with anything on earth or in the universe. Allah is interested in and is involved in humanity, but does not interfere in any way in our physical lives. Allah guides the development of the universe and everything thereon like a Master Planner. Our relationship and interaction of our spirit with the Spirit of Allah is for our, not Allah's benefit. THIS IS ALLAH’S NEW MESSAGE.

Namaste,

Kurt

[cmptechie]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

As I said earlier, Muslims have firm belief that an original Bible did came from God. We are not doubting that, but still, there are contradictions in the Modren Bible and are due to human involvement.


As many as they are pointed out, they have been publically clerified. Just so you know, there were around 60,000 books written against Islam in a span of 150 years. Do you think that the points on such sites were not placed forward. There are Muslim scholors who have publically clerified the contradictions. If they would not have, I would not have placed this claim. As I said about places where there are diehard critics of Islam and the Qur'an, there have been people writting about all and any contradictions they can find. Again they are always monitered by Muslim scholors and clerified. As a case came out between me and Samabudhi in the thread about Misconceptions, all the contradictions are due to mistranslations, misqoutations and false assumptions.

I'll be bluntly honest here, that has got to be the single worst argument for Islam I have ever heard. Since you laughed off the entire page of contradictions, I'll give you a couple of them on this post that I can't reconcile in any way, and see if you can explain them to me.

Sura 5:90

Oh, you who believe! Strong drink, games of chance, idols, and divine arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside that you may succeed.

Now this makes sense to me, but compared to:

Sura 47:15

A similitude of the garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted and rivers of wine delicious to the drinker.

If alcohol (strong drink in above verse) is Satan's handiwork, how did it get into paradise?

This is relatively small compared to the next

Sura 5:69

Believers, Jews, Christians, Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and does what is right shall have nothing to fear or regret

Sura 2:62

Those who believe (in the Qu'ran) and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah, and the Last Day and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

These two verses are saying the Christians and Jews are promised Paradise alongside the Muslims, however compare these two verses with the next

Sura 3:85

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the herafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.

Sura 5:72

Unbelievers are those who say "God is the Messiah, the son of Mary," For the Messiah himself said, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. He that worships other gods besides God, God will deny him paradise and fire shall be his home. None shall help the evildoers.

While the first two verses are clearly showing that the Jews and Christians are including in with the Muslims as believers, the latter 2 are just as clearly showing the opposite.
Now, as a Christian myself, I'm greatly troubled by this, as I now have to very different teaching coming from the same religion. This is only a small taste of all the doctrinal issues I've found with Islam. Though the Bible can be said to have just as many errors, if not more, than the Qu'ran, in no case is the errors, or "contradictions" about one of the doctrines of Christianity.
The Qu'ran claims itself to be complete in everything, but all I've seen is for every question answered, 10 more questions spring up. This is not the case with the Bible.
All doctrine in the Bible is clear cut. Though some things have changed between the Old and the New Testament, the doctrines have never changed, only the consequences on this earth.
Please explain to me how these blatant contradictions can so easily be laughed off. I'd like to hear this.