messianic jew

[dayaa]

hello everyone
is there a hebrew speaking messianic jew in the house? i have a question which i need to be answered specifically by someone in that category. if not can anyone tell me where i can find one please.
thankyou

[bananabrain]

if there is one "in the house", come out, so i can kick you in the nadgers.

dayaa - i can do my best to give you a christian spin on a biblical verse, if you like. might be an interesting exercise for me.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[brucegdc]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

if there is one "in the house", come out, so i can kick you in the nadgers.

dayaa - i can do my best to give you a christian spin on a biblical verse, if you like. might be an interesting exercise for me.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Now, is that nice, BB? You'll scare them off... or deeper into hiding

Dayaa - you'll probably have more luck on the Christian forum, since "Messianic Jews" tends to be another way of describing the "Jews For Jesus" movement which basically is a Christian group focussed on converting Jews by saying that Jesus is the Jewish messiah...

[dayaa]

hello/shalom
right, now i've managed to stop laughing i'll try to go back to the subject. sorry jewish people, i do realise this isn't the right board to ask for messianic jews! originally i didn't post it here....i posted it on comparative....i don't know how it found it's way here....i was as surprised as you! lol.
basically what i wanted to ask is why????
i am trying to understand why some people are so sure that jesus is the messiah while others are equally sure he is not. i have heard jewish complaints that the christians have tampered with translations of the jewish scriptures, for example using capital letters for Lord where there are no capitals in hebrew, so i wanted to ask someone who is christian but specifically jewish christian who can understand the hebrew scriptures why they have decided to accept the christian viewpoint. is it a question of interpretation? how much of the problem is down to interpretation and how much is specific tampering. as i cannot read hebrew myself it is very difficult for me to try to make sense of the differences.
while i am here, can i please ask another question. i have actually asked it several times already and some very nice people have tried to answer, but maybe i have not been able to make my question clear and i am not getting the answer i am looking for. i have been asking about the age of the oldest jewish scriptures still in existence.....and people have been telling me the dates of the origins of the books. what i am asking about is physical books still in existence......meaning can you check your copies of books now with "originals" from 1000 years ago? 2000? for corrupted texts or lack of corruption? thank you for your help.

[InLove]

Hi, and Shalom, Everyone--

I am not posting to try and answer, but I am also interested in the questions dayaa has asked. (As a reader--not a poster!)

But I just had to stop in and post an LOL! here, because I could not help thinking that if the "powers that be" here in CR ever took a notion, they sure could mess with our minds! Funny that you wound up on the Judaism board, dayaa, but I bet you will get at least some of the answers you are looking for.

LOLOL--bananabrain!

InPeace,
InLove

[bananabrain]

i am trying to understand why some people are so sure that jesus is the messiah while others are equally sure he is not.

because for both camps getting an answer that matches their beliefs is really, really important! if jesus *was* the jewish messiah, then christians would be right and we would have a whole raft of stuff to deal with. equally, if we are right and he wasn't, then christians have to completely rework their theology. being jewish, we were the people to originally define the category messiahship, as it were, so we just use our texts and our interpretations with the results already noted. so, basically, the argument goes, "these are the criteria, jesus doesn't fulfil them, end of argument." because christians do not accept the same criteria (for whatever reason) they don't accept the result of the process driven by those criteria and categories.

i have heard jewish complaints that the christians have tampered with translations of the jewish scriptures, for example using capital letters for Lord where there are no capitals in hebrew, so i wanted to ask someone who is christian but specifically jewish christian who can understand the hebrew scriptures why they have decided to accept the christian viewpoint.

oh, i see. well, they might be convinced by the arguments put forward to link the figure of jesus both linguistically and metaphorically to all the references that are said to be to him. i note there's a thread over in the christianity forum that is arguing somehow that certain Divine Names in genesis are in fact prophetic visions of jesus appearing to abraham and so on. needless to say, from my PoV these have absolutely no credibility and their persuasiveness is entirely rhetorical, or belief-based if you prefer.

is it a question of interpretation? how much of the problem is down to interpretation and how much is specific tampering. as i cannot read hebrew myself it is very difficult for me to try to make sense of the differences.

this is quite a big issue, you see, because it is impossible to actually make sense of what a given verse means without some knowledge of hebrew and its context. otherwise, you're at the mercy of the spin of the translator. in fact, we would say that without a knowledge of the oral tradition that goes with the written text you're really still nowhere at all. christians in general are unaware of the oral tradition and what it says, even such basic commentaries as that of rashi (france, C12th). in a way, it really comes down to who you *trust* - you always end up having to either trust a tradition, a translator, a teacher or an interpreter at some point. and, obviously, i am, like others, more likely to trust people who have the same values as myself. the question then becomes to what extent you take your questioning of your sources and what attitude you have to criticising them. if one is to believe academics, for example, anything that isn't from a university is automatically suspect, whereas from the PoV of some traditionalists, voices from outside the tradition have nothing to teach those inside it. i think both points of view are extreme. my understanding of the book of leviticus, for example, has been transformed by the work of the catholic anthrologist dr mary douglas and my understanding of maimonides' "guide to the perplexed" and the Temple service has likewise been informed by a combination of academics and traditionalists. the trick is in knowing who has which axe to grind and when to take them with a pinch of salt. nobody should be entirely exempt all the time - particularly academics. everyone has an agenda.

i have been asking about the age of the oldest jewish scriptures still in existence.....and people have been telling me the dates of the origins of the books. what i am asking about is physical books still in existence......meaning can you check your copies of books now with "originals" from 1000 years ago? 2000? for corrupted texts or lack of corruption? thank you for your help.

i believe the oldest copies of the jewish scriptures extant are the aleppo and leningrad codexes, but i don't know how old they are. about 2000 years i think. maybe not as old as the dead sea scrolls, but i don't really know. but, yes, we can still check our copies of books with originals and we know about every single letter, dot or variant, who is supposed to have written, added or changed what. the only thing i am fundamentally obliged to believe as far as i am aware is that G!D gave the letters of the pentateuch/Torah to moses, who wrote them down, although some authorities suggest that he dictated the last few verses to joshua.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dayaa]

thankyou banana for your comments.
the question of everyone starting from their own beliefs then trying to prove it or justify it, and everyone having their own agenda is what i am finding so difficult. everyone tells you "their" belief is the "right" one.
i have bought a copy of the "jewish study bible" but haven't started to read it yet. i was getting on quite nicely reading the "old testament" before i realised that it is different from the jewish version. i felt that before trying to read again it's better to get some answers to some questions to make sure i am reading the "right stuff" from various perspectives. my plan is to read jewish scriptures, christian new testament and the quran and try to make some sense of it all.
although i haven't started reading yet, i had a quick glance at it and noticed vast amounts of footnotes......would these footnotes explain oral tradition? i understood that oral tradition has been written down now and that it is essential to understanding the scriptures. will i get an adequate understanding of jewish beliefs by reading my study bible with all it's footnotes ? or could you suggest supplementary reading material explaining oral tradition?
my plan was based on the idea that it's no good listening to what other people say about the beliefs of others, rather it is better to see what each belief says about itself.
thank you also for the information about the dates of books. that was the answer i was looking for......but i wonder could i trouble you to find out for me more exactly? you said about 2000 years....i would really appreciate it if i could have more precise information as i have a specific reason for asking that question in my own mind.
thanks again

[dayaa]

hello again/shalom
just to say don't worry about the exact dates of the books. co-incidentally the answer i needed came up over on christian forum in response to a slightly different question.
thanks anyway

[Chalice]

Originally Posted by dayaa

hello everyone
is there a hebrew speaking messianic jew in the house? i have a question which i need to be answered specifically by someone in that category. if not can anyone tell me where i can find one please.
thankyou

You can go to the Jews for Jesus web sight and ask them to get you in touch with someone, as they have many that work at their headquarters who speak hebrew, english and so forth. They also sell hebrew/english dictionaries, videos and have alot of resources. They can direct you to a local congregation where someone can help you. You can also go to a local Christian book store and purchase "Strongs Exhaustive Concordance" of Hebrew and Greek and just look up the word you want to, even look up a word inthe Bible and get a word study on it if you use the concordance correctly (by using word numbers...)

Good luck to you.

[Chalice]

Originally Posted by dayaa

hello/shalom
right, now i've managed to stop laughing i'll try to go back to the subject. sorry jewish people, i do realise this isn't the right board to ask for messianic jews! originally i didn't post it here....i posted it on comparative....i don't know how it found it's way here....i was as surprised as you! lol.
basically what i wanted to ask is why????
i am trying to understand why some people are so sure that jesus is the messiah while others are equally sure he is not. i have heard jewish complaints that the christians have tampered with translations of the jewish scriptures, for example using capital letters for Lord where there are no capitals in hebrew, so i wanted to ask someone who is christian but specifically jewish christian who can understand the hebrew scriptures why they have decided to accept the christian viewpoint. is it a question of interpretation? how much of the problem is down to interpretation and how much is specific tampering. as i cannot read hebrew myself it is very difficult for me to try to make sense of the differences.
while i am here, can i please ask another question. i have actually asked it several times already and some very nice people have tried to answer, but maybe i have not been able to make my question clear and i am not getting the answer i am looking for. i have been asking about the age of the oldest jewish scriptures still in existence.....and people have been telling me the dates of the origins of the books. what i am asking about is physical books still in existence......meaning can you check your copies of books now with "originals" from 1000 years ago? 2000? for corrupted texts or lack of corruption? thank you for your help.

The oldest Jewish scriptures are held at a circular shaped museaum in Israel called "the Dome of the Book". It houses scrolls found in the "dead sea scrolls" - they are original, and very accurate to todays scriptures.

[bananabrain]

You can go to the Jews for Jesus web sight and ask them to get you in touch with someone, as they have many that work at their headquarters who speak hebrew, english and so forth.

this is crossing the line into outright evangelism. watch it or else.

b'shalom

bananabrain