meditations on panentheism

[earl]

Hmm, did same thing again & didn't link up accordingly. How odd. Well, actually this site I'm thinking of is operated by the Buddhist Faith Fellowship of Connecticut which is an integrated Shin/zen approach. I'd imagine if 1 wanted to accurately find the html I was thinking about they could google name of this group, get on their site & proceed from there. Sorry about that. I may be into apophatic mystery but I ain't about spreading confusion Take care, Earl

[InLove]

Good for you, Earl. I know this is going to sound a bit crazy, maybe, but I just have to tell it--There is a certain "brand" of country music that is not exactly mainstream, and it comes out of places like the Hill Country of Texas. I don't remember who sang this song or wrote it, but one of the lines goes something like this :"Buddha was not a Christian, but Jesus would have made a good Buddhist."

Just thought I would add that for smiles.

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

Great posts everyone.

A small contribution from the Book of Common Prayer. In this Thanksgiving over the Water in the Holy Baptism I see us living under and in and through God.

We thank you, Almighty God, for the gift of water. Over it the Holy Spirit moved in the beginning of creation. Through it you led the children of Israel out of their bondage in Egypt inot the land ofpromise. In it your Son Jesus received the baptism of John and was anointed by the Holy Spirit as the Messiah, the Christ, to lead us, through his death and resurrection, from the bondage of sin into everlasting life.

We thank you, Father, for the water of Baptism. In it we are buried with Christ in his death. By it we share in his resurrection. Through it we are reborn by the Holy Spirit. ...

lunamoth

[InLove]

Hi, and Peace to Everyone--

Thanks for posting that, lunamoth--the pastor where I attend church says something similar during baptisms. I have always loved what the words symbolize.

InPeace,
InLove

[earl]

Have long been inspired by the mystical writings of the Sufis. Just ran across a quotation by the Sufi, Ibn Arabi that I thought so well encapsulated panentheism, (not to mention encapsulated my own unique "heretical" brand of zentheism )

"It is none other than He who progresses and journeys as you. There is nothing to be known but He; and since He is Being itself, He is therefore also the journeyer. There is no knower but He; so who are you? Know your true Reality. He is the essential self of us all. But He conceals it by the appearance of otherness, which is you. If you hold to multiplicity, yoou are with the world; and if you hold to Unity, you are with the Truth...Our names are but the names of God; at the same time our individual selves are His shadow. He is at once our identity and not our identity...Consider!"

Interesting here the use of the term "Unity"- not "oneness." The latter term would seem to extinguish ontologically any form of differentiation while "Unity" implies panentheism-a separateness that is also an integral whole.

Take care, Earl

[Thomas]

Hi all -
(and hi Earl - and I'm not stalking you, honest!)

As a Catholic one is often faced with a paradox, as here, that 'giants' of Catholicism appear to be endorsing a doctrine which is contrary to the articles of faith. The resolution of the dilemma lies in the understanding that such voices speak from within the tradition itself. (As opposed to say, Arius or Tertullian, who eventually took a stance outside it.) One is obliged (surely?) to interpret their teachings from the standpoint of their profession of faith. Otherwise one is obliged to accept that they professed something other than what they believe in.

Again, Eckhart, St Maximus and Eriugena were at times to called to defend their faith, and championed orthodoxy most vigourously, especially in the case of St Maximus and notably in his spiritual successor, Eriugena, in their stand again monothelitism and monophysitism as doctrinal error and errors, might I suggest, that allow for a discreet panentheism.

To accept this apparent panentheism (according to the term as it is commonly understood) requires the abandonment of the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo - that God created the world from nothing (that God brought the world into being by a free act of will, and not through any modification or determination of his own mode of being), and furthermore renders void the Chalcedonian definition of the two wills of the Incarnate Christ - a dithelitist doctrine of which St Maximus was the architect and because of his defence of the true faith we honour him with the appelation 'the Confessor.'

I believe the question turns on the distinction of a panentheism by grace as oppsed to a panentheism by nature.

The latter lies finally in a monism (everything is God), refined by pantheism to say that God is in everything (a subtle distinction), refined again to add that God is in everything and simultaneously transcends everything.

The former (panentheism by grace) in spirit validates and is validated by every other article of faith. In the letter it would be refined, as panentheism is too indeterminate a term and paves the way for confusions, which arise all too easily, even in the face of the most dogmatic expression.

This perspective allows that creation is absolutely 'other than' God (ex nihilo) and in no sense can be considered any mode of penentheist determination. Ex nihilo states that creation was not fashioned from some pre-existing primordial and unmanifest Substance, nor does its source and foundation lie in any pre-existing essence - creation encompasses the principle of Substance and Essence, it is not the product of a causal manifestation.

In 'looking upon' His creation, as it were, God saw that it was 'good' (as Genesis states) and in so doing chose to dwell therein - this shekinah, indwelling, Immanent Presence, is in all things in an absolute sense - by which I mean that God chooses to be 'in' and not 'near' in any relative sense of a distance from a given being, but rather that God is in the very core of the being itself, so much so that God actually underlies the nature of being, and any given being.

This 'underwriting' of being - the reception of the Word - is Immanent in the nature of things but forms no part of it; and according to St Maximus, Christ has implanted in each created thing a characteristic logos, a “thought” or “word,” which is the divine presence in that thing, which gives it a sense of itself as 'real' (the logos is real), and at the same time draws it towards God.

Christ as Creator-Logos constitutes at once the source and the end of the particular logoi, and in this fashion acts as an all-embracing and unifying cosmic presence (by, through, in and with according to the Liturgy) that transcends the being in its every dimension.

see:
http://www.incommunion.org/articles/...to-the-creator

As Bishop Kallistos says:
Thus the logoi of all things are embraced by the Logos,
but the Logos is not embraced by any thing.

Thomas

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

In 'looking upon' His creation, as it were, God saw that it was 'good' (as Genesis states) and in so doing chose to dwell therein - this shekinah, indwelling, Immanent Presence, is in all things in an absolute sense - by which I mean that God chooses to be 'in' and not 'near' in any relative sense of a distance from a given being, but rather that God is in the very core of the being itself, so much so that God actually underlies the nature of being, and any given being.

This 'underwriting' of being - the reception of the Word - is Immanent in the nature of things but forms no part of it; and according to St Maximus, Christ has implanted in each created thing a characteristic logos, a “thought” or “word,” which is the divine presence in that thing, which gives it a sense of itself as 'real' (the logos is real), and at the same time draws it towards God.

Christ as Creator-Logos constitutes at once the source and the end of the particular logoi, and in this fashion acts as an all-embracing and unifying cosmic presence (by, through, in and with according to the Liturgy) that transcends the being in its every dimension.

Thomas

Hi Thomas, I appreciate this clarification. By panentheism I've always thought of God as permeating and more than permeating all of His Creation, which seems like what you are saying above about panentheism by grace. To me this never seemed to conflict the idea that He created it all out of nothing, though I must admit I have not pondered the theology that deeply with respect to this.

It's good to see you posting--I remember your posts from long ago when I first joined CR, over a year ago. And oh! I tend to stalk poor earl too. He's a good sport about it though.

peace,
lunamoth

[earl]

Hi Thomas-we meet again. This is a wonderful place to hang out & good to meet up with you here as well as there. And Lunamoth-you who first welcomed me here to a place that simply fed my addiction to forums- no stalking of anyone but we dance together and I so enjoy it. The Spirit indwells and uplifts to take us beyond who we thought we were just a moment ago-panentheistic. God bless us all, earl