Meaning of trinity

[Seeker_of_truth]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Yes, but isn't the Baha'i Faith described by many ways?

Yes, when Abdu'l-Baha was in America he was asked to define the Baha'i Faith in one word, he replied, "Unity".
There are many dimensions of the Baha'i Faith.

[Seeker_of_truth]

Originally Posted by pattimax

I am reading up on Baha'i. It says Jesus death did not attain salvation. At best, it was an example of self-sacrifice. Nor did Jesus rise from the dead. "Resurrection " is simply a metaphorical way of saying that Jesus' teachings and cause found "new life" in the disciples minds after three days of troublesome doubting.

You are not saved by faith, you are saved by obedience.

THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST

Question. -- What is the meaning of Christ's resurrection after three days?

Answer. -- The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ's coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: "For I came down from heaven"; and also in verse 42 we find: "And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?" Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Observe that it is said, "The Son of man is in heaven," while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from 104 the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.

Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.

Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ's resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.

Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended 105 the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it. 106

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 102)



Also, you will find that not all of the 2.1 billion Christian believers belonging to 23,000 sects and denominations agree on the same thing.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth

THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST

Question. -- What is the meaning of Christ's resurrection after three days?

Answer. -- The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body.

The miracle of the bodily resurrection of Christ is what promises believers eternal life. Oh, and your current prophet doesn’t really hold authority. And speaking of authority, you better not mess up, your salvation depends on obedience, not faith. According to Bahai’ that when you mess up, your salvation is only definite if you “turn again towards God, accept his manifestation for that day, and follow his teachings.” Also, Bahai’s just hope that they will go to heaven. Of course you can say whatever you want (that includes statistics). Biblical authority is the only true authority in my life, not some strange prophet.

It is definitely preferred by society and I that I hold to my sweet Lord’s wishes, but I know for a fact that there is mercy and my salvation is secure if I happen to slip (which is garanteed). I do NOT HAVE TO EARN my salvation by living by God’s laws; it is my beautiful choice.

[Seeker_of_truth]

"This Book is the Holy Book of God and of sacred inspiration. It is the Bible of salvation, the noble Gospel."

(Abdu'l-Bahá, p145)


Baha'is believe in Christ and the Bible. Baha'is believe everything in the NT that talks about Jesus ( as well as prophecies concerning Him in the OT.) He is regarded as Messiah, Savior, Son of God, Alpha and the Omega, Only Way, and many others.



All the favors of God have been sent down, as a token of His grace. The waters of everlasting life have, in their fullness, been proffered unto men.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 34)

Salvation in the Baha'i Faith is through grace not works.

One would find, if one takes the time to study the life of Baha'u'llah that his life was not much different than the life of Christ.

-Seeker

[Postmaster]

Baha'is recognise that all major world religions are divine and they all share common teachings. Saying this I don't think it's fair that we have a Baha'i proselytizer on a Christian forum.

[Seeker_of_truth]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Baha'is recognise that all major world religions are divine and they all share common teachings. Saying this I don't think it's fair that we have a Baha'i proselytizer on a Christian forum.

I was merely giving a Baha'i answer to the meaning of the trinity. Is it wrong for me to defend the Baha'i Faith if someone says something false about it?

[Postmaster]

Your meaning of the Baha'i trinity provoked a false Baha'i response maybe because it's in a Christian forum.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Your meaning of the Baha'i trinity provoked a false Baha'i response maybe because it's in a Christian forum.

Please tell me what is false about it.


Salvation chapter 8

You ask if, through the appearance of the kingdom of God, every soul hath been saved. The Sun of Reality hath appeared to all the world. This luminous appearance is salvation and life; but only he who hath opened the eye of reality (read: obedience) and who hath seen these lights will be saved.


Mercy and Justice chapter 9

It is not advisable to show kindness to a person who is a tyrant, a traitor or a thief because kindness encourages him to become worse and does not awaken him. The more kindness you show to a liar the more he is apt to lie, for he thinks that you know not, while you do know, but extreme kindness keeps you from revealing your knowledge.
(While it may make sense in the world’s eyes, this is NOT the teachings of Jesus)

- From Bahai World of Faith

[Saltmeister]

Since we're here to discuss the meaning of the Trinity, I'm thinking we should focus on how the meaning of the Trinity might be seen and not on the morality of an adherent of Baha'i presenting his/her perspective.

I think Seeker presented a positive and insightful description/depiction of how the Trinity may be conceptualised, even though it is not a "purely Christian" point of view. This to me simply broadens our experience. I see it as an exercise. I didn't detect any intent at proselytising.

It may help us decide and discern what is and what is not what the Trinity means, or what we mean by "the Christian Trinity." Sometimes it is good to have a point of reference that we can use as a comparison against what is a reasonable and unreasonable concept.

But as Pattimax explained before, the Trinity is beyond words.

Or....at least it is not possible to completely define the Trinity -- ie. to set limits and boundaries on what the Trinity could mean.

Meaning is often expressed in the affirmative -- ie. we explain what something does mean, but not what it cannot mean. When we claim that a concept completely defines something, that we have an exact, and precise definition of something like the Trinity, it's like we disqualifying other people from having a valid concept. The idea, I believe, is not to claim that we have an exact and precise definition, but that we have a concept of one, possible notion of the Trinity, out of many that could be out there.

Different people will have a different way of upholding the same concept through different meanings. That said, the Trinity isn't really one concept, but many. Each person has their own concept or variation, one that reflects their relationship with God.

Once again, since meaning is usually best expressed in the affirmative, those possessing a concept of the Trinity can usually be said to have a relationship with God in the classical Christian sense, and those not having one may or may not have a relationship with God in the classical Christian sense. They'd have to be questioned further to find out if they've got a substitute. But then again, it's not our business to decide if others have a relationship with God, as it's more important to figure out our own. Take the wood out of our eyes.

I'm not particularly that concerned that Baha'i notions and concepts are being expressed here. Although it's regarded as alien and foreign, we have a choice of either bashing Baha'i concepts or seeing it as an opportunity to better understand our own concepts so that the distinctions between Christianity and Baha'i can be better understood.

We may well know what Baha'i beliefs are, but I see this as an opportunity to rationalise our own beliefs. This could be part of a perpetual cycle. Every time someone expresses beliefs alien to our own, to rationalise, or re-rationalise our own beliefs so that whatever experience comes out of it is meaningful. It would be boring if we just said, in response to Baha'i beliefs, that your beliefs are different to our's and therefore there's no point discussing them further.

I think this bored attitude is reinforcing our boredom. Let's start taking an interest so we won't be bored.

ie. We already know Christian concepts are different to Baha'i concepts, but why are they different? There must be an explanation, reason, justification. Why, for example, do we see the Christian Trinity the way we do? What can we tell Seeker beyond just stating the obvious?

Baha'i may be an attempt to please everyone by lumping Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism together, so is there something that Baha'i is missing, despite it "containing" Christianity? It's impossible to faithfully include all the conventional concepts in a respective combination of religions.

[lunamoth]

First, Patti has not given false information about the Baha'i Faith, as she was able to show with the references she posted. I might extend a bit on the salvation discussion to say that Baha'is do not believe in hell, that all souls progress eternally toward God, but in that you can see both good and bad news. Good news...all progress eternally, bad news...you do not have the immediate and full reunion with God that Christianity promises. And yes, it is based upon works in this life. How well off we are in the next life depends upon how well we develop our virtues in this this. Baha'is will compare it to being born crippled in the next life if we, say, fail to be as chaste in this life as God wishes us to be. I found this to be cold comfort as a Baha'i when I was really struggling with some issues in my life.

As for the Baha'i concept of the Trinity, it falls short of the Christian doctrine because it makes Jesus neither human nor God, but in between. As a Baha'i I liked the mirror analogy for the Trinity and found it useful for understanding how Jesus could be both man and God, the 'dual stations' as they call it. But the Baha'i Faith flatly denies that Jesus was God incarnate, and so in comparison to Christian doctrine, His death has no meaning: it could do nothing to redeem us. The important part of Jesus' mission was His teachings (according to baha'i doctrine), not His resurrection (which as Patti pointed out, is also denied).

The Baha'i approach to the Bible is strangely Sola Scriptura, or in other words, to be read totally apart from any Christian tradition, including any ideas about the deity of Christ, the Trinity, the Incarnation. It is actually a lot more like the JW faith, both in the way the Bible is interpretted and in Jesus having a 'station' in between humans and God. Yes, Abdul Baha upheld the Bible, but anything that does not agree with the Baha'i Faith is considered to be read 'spiritually,' or metaphorically.

Patti is quite right...the Baha'i Faith equates development of our virtues and obedience to the laws of God (as brought by Baha'u'llah) with salvation, some of which, to my best discernment, are not in the Spirit of Love. Justice overshadows Mercy.

Christianity is almost the opposite of this. We see the outflow of the virtues as a result of loving God and each other, and we see the law as that which condemns us, while the love of Christ sets us free.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth

"This Book is the Holy Book of God and of sacred inspiration. It is the Bible of salvation, the noble Gospel."

(Abdu'l-Bahá, p145)


Baha'is believe in Christ and the Bible.

Yes, but what does this mean when you have a different interpretation of Christ, His deity, His mission?

Baha'is believe everything in the NT that talks about Jesus ( as well as prophecies concerning Him in the OT.) He is regarded as Messiah,

But you also believe the 'Messiah' must come over and over again. In fact, you believe that Christ has returned not just once, but three times, in Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. Muhammad and the Bab we separated by over a thousand years, but the Bab and Baha'u'llah were both Christ Manifest concurrently. How, exactly does that fit with prophecies of the Bible, Old or New Testament?

Savior,

But as you wrote, you believe it is only by following His teachings that we are saved, not anything He otherwise did for us. He did not conquer death and sin, according to Baha'i teachings. Frankly I also agree that we are saved (in this life) by following His example of Love, but really the Baha'i view is sort of a glorified humanist position. We save ourselves (and obviously not very well, since the Savior needs to keep coming over and over).

Son of God,

Which you believe is just a title, not an indication that He is God incarnate.

Alpha and the Omega,

Along with Adam, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah...and others.

Only Way,

I actually agree (more or less) with the Baha'i understanding of the Only Way, but it is not traditional Christian meaning. The Christian view is that without Christ (one way or another) there is no salvation. The Baha'i view thinks that this is being attached to the Messenger, instead of the message. According to Baha'i teaching we are to give up our attachment to Christ, and embrace His teachings (light), or more accurately we must embrace the teachings for this day, brought by Baha'u'llah. So, this is a very very different meaning than Christians have...don't you think it's a bit deceitful to present it as if you believe everything Christians do?

All the favors of God have been sent down, as a token of His grace. The waters of everlasting life have, in their fullness, been proffered unto men.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 34)

Salvation in the Baha'i Faith is through grace not works.

Yet, as has been pointed out, failure to embrace the teachings of Baha'u'llah and to develop our virtues here will result in us being handicapped in the next life.

[Postmaster]

Ok sorry for over reacting, I was being over sensitive to the Christians here.

But you also believe the 'Messiah' must come over and over again. In fact, you believe that Christ has returned not just once, but three times, in Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. Muhammad and the Bab we separated by over a thousand years, but the Bab and Baha'u'llah were both Christ Manifest concurrently. How, exactly does that fit with prophecies of the Bible, Old or New Testament?

John the Baptist is considered the second to last prophet of Christianity the same way. Also the Bab meaning the gate is what he called himself right from the start, Bahaullah meaning the glory of God which makes reference to the return of Christ. John the Baptist still has followers in southern Iraq that reject Jesus. Some Christian scholars have a different historical version to John the Baptist and Christ compared to the biblical one, one that would fit more with the Bab and Bahaullah. Also in the bible there is a prophecy mentioned of a comforter coming which could be associated with Mohamed. I could be wrong on some of this. Otherwise we still haven't seen a comforter or Christ return.

[pattimax]

The teachings of Bahai' far out weigh prophecy.

[17th Angel]

lol.... I love you guys

[Postmaster]