Masturbation and God

[dauer]

Saltmeister,

Sorta. Not really. Firstly is that from my position there is nothing unhealthy about it in God's eyes. Rather it's something that's completely natural and okay. But because of the views that humans have adopted, a lot of guilt has built up around it, and discomfort, and this in itself, imo, can lead to the desanctification of sex, beginning to view it as dirty. Imo, that is where the real problem lies. I think this is especially a problem in an atmosphere like America, with its Puritan roots, and I think it's what leads to a lot of the destructive and irresponsible sexual activity that we see. We know, for example, that teaching abstinence doesn't work. Humans are sexual creatures.

I think that a shift in perspective would help to remedy this situation. If we can begin to see the holy in masturbation, we're reprogramming away that guilt and shame that's been hardwired for generations. A healthier view of sexual activity, imo, leads to healthier choices. That's not to say people won't have sex before marriage, or with multiple partners, but I can't immediately say there's anything wrong with that, and when they're making choices about those issues, they'll be making them differently. Because if the sex is "dirty" as it were, if the sex is something shameful, then it just won't mesh with their previous solo experiences. They'll want to seek something affirming and holy, whatever that might be for them.

Dauer

[intrepidlover]

The fact that this topic is being openly discussed was enough to bring me to this forum from one that was, well, full of w*nkers.

Perhaps some of you have heard of Tantric Yoga. This has been corrupted by New Agers who use it to seek heightened and extended orgasms. However in its original and correct meaning it is a way to "God" or enlightenment by using the natural bodily appetites.

In Tantric yoga at the point of orgasm, instead of ejaculation, the energy is consciously directed up the spine through the various chakras to the Crown Chakra which is the point at which the individual unites with the universal consciousness or God.

For those of you who may not know about Tantric Yoga, it occurred to me to mention this because of the initial post and a few others which suggested that masturbation might be dedicated to God as it were, and perhaps that is a valid notion which has never occurred to me.

The Bible -- OT and NT -- repeatedly condemns fornication, adultery and homosexuality, but nowhere is there any mention of masturbation. That would suggest to me that it is not considered a "sin" as such. However -- and again I refer to Eastern spiritual philosophy -- each time you ejaculate you lose some of your life force. Continuous or addictive masturbation could I believe be quite detrimental to one's health in the long term.

No you won't go blind or grow hair on your palms, but you might lose a lot of your natural vigour.

[Francis king]

dauer, wasn't being mean about the amish, or beards, both of which are pretty cool... my mate mitch, who's jewish, once told me that akanasi (sp?) jews were aurburn haired- is this true? and whether it is or not, whats an akanasi? and, most importantly, how do u spell it? ahkanasi? u'll most likely know... no rush for a reply like... just curious... cheerio

[dauer]

Francis,

Ashkenazim or Ashkenazi Jews are Jews whose ancestors are from Eastern Europe. Some have naturally red hair. I'm not sure if this is also true for other groups like sefardim. My hair on my head is so dark brown that many people think it's black, but when I used to bleach it first it turned red, and then it started to to turn more blonde. My beard has much less brown in it. So most of what is visible is the red.

Dauer

[17th Angel]

On the theme of masturbation and god.... Have you heard any of them christian female singers? They seem to -love- jesus alot don't they... I mean... really -love- jesus.... hmmm, just an observation...

Example: Amy Grant...

[Francis king]

thanks for answering my q's dauer... thought maybe ur head hair was dyed and ur beard was natural, hence my ashkenazim question... incidentally, I'm a natural ginger (although bleach makes it white) and was probably why I remembered the ashkenazim thing... if I have any more daft q's I'll know where to send em! shalom

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Originally Posted by dauer

Much as with the traditional Jewish view of sex, there's also a time for everything, so the idea would be to delegate Shabbos as the day on which it happens. In this way masturbation and thus sexual expression via relationship gets connected with the Sacred in the mind, and it also teaches self control and discipline.

Personally I believe our sexuality is a gift from God, and like all God's gifts we are meant to use and enjoy it, as long as that is done in a spirit of respect for ourselves and any others involved. So I totally agree with the points you are bringing up, Dauer - but:

I just have an image in my head of the family coming home from the synagogue and everyone going into their bedrooms and closing the door for a while. How could you relax enough to enjoy masturbating in the first place? You know what your brother is doing in his room, you know what your sister is doing in her room, you definitely know what your parents are doing in their room. Ew. I think it's more likely to connect masturbation with traumatic images.

Originally Posted by cavalier

Let's stop beating around the bush.

[dauer]

Scarlet,

It's already established in Judaism that Shabbos is a day for couples (traditionally married) to... couple. So I think if the children are old enough, they probably know the kind of menuchah (rest) their parents are getting into. lol.

I don't think it would be a good idea to teach children from an early age all about masturbation, but when they hit puberty, and it comes up, you have the sex talk anyway. So you then end up either passing on your ideas about sexuality and its manifestation in life or letting someone else pass theirs on.

I can't picture a sort of choreographed ritual taking place so easily where everyone rushes off at the same time to express themselves sexually as soon as they get back from shul. It seems like something more personal each person would figure out on their own. So, if, hypothetically, a family does teach this to their children, and, hypothetically, they all take to the idea, maybe there's one child who finds Friday evening before bed is best,(that would seem the most opportune time to me), another finds a little time on Saturday after shul while other people are napping.

I also think that part of your reaction is what this is attempting to address, which is society's notion that I think goes much deeper than concious thought that sex is not sacred, and even if our actions manifest it differently, I think there's a puritanical voice saying it's something a little dirty.

You know, this thread has caused me to think much deeper on this than I would have. So I thank everyone who has contributed so far.

Dauer

[Snoopy]

Dauer,

Don't you think you've kept this up for long enough now?

s.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Dauer,

Don't you think you've kept this up for long enough now?

s.

issues with waxing philosophic?

[Snoopy]

there's a time and a place for waxing.

s.

[dauer]

Dauer,

Don't you think you've kept this up for long enough now?

s.

Attempt at a pun? Or serious inquiry? This thread has died many times. It's occasionally revived, and when it is, as with most threads, I have no problem continuing. Does the content offend you? It's not in jest. I am quite serious.

Dauer

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by dauer

Attempt at a pun? Or serious inquiry? This thread has died many times. It's occasionally revived, and when it is, as with most threads, I have no problem continuing. Does the content offend you? It's not in jest. I am quite serious.

Dauer

Hi,

Not serious - there's a smiley face in my post. I had an attack of levity.

It's difficult to offend me; this doesn't and if it did I know where the off button is!

s.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Conscience

God does see masterbation as a sin. In fact, Jesus said, "You heard it say that you shall not commit adultry, but I say to you that whoever looks at a woman with lust, has commited adultry with her in his heart." God sees our thoughts, and judges us by them. He is truely HOLY!

I trust that I'm speaking to adults here and so I want to add to what Conscience has said - namely, about the fact that God knows how wicked our hearts are. You see, in the moment of lust and masturbation, many perverted things are going on that we shouldnt even think about. Take porn, for example. Its not just that we look at porn and masturbate, but in our minds and hearts (in the moment of masturbation) we desire what we see. Therefore, in that moment, we are all perverse and sexually perverted people who only seek self gratification at the expensive of another person. In truth, we are all fornicators and adulterers for lack of real opportunity. Its the same way with anger by the way. If God were to take away His common grace and have all us do what we want to do in the heat of the moment, whether it be lust or hate, we'd all be the worst of men and woman. Ah, but we are just that! Its only the Sovereign God who restrains us and over comes our rebellion with His grace and love. Most people dont see this and they think they are good people. I would ask such a person to humble themselves and pray that God gives you grace to see yourself in truth.

Also, check out these these two sermons about "Sex and the Supremecy of Christ" which deals with the purpose of Sex, here: Part 1 and Part 2.

Finally, you can check out a song about Porn by Chrisitan Rapper Timothy Brindle. The song, by the way, deals with the above sermons, "sex and the supremacy of Christ," which is by Pastor/Theologian, John Piper. You can find the song here.

[dauer]

You see, in the moment of lust and masturbation, many perverted things are going on that we shouldnt even think about.

But is masturbation always about lust? Is the eating of food when one is hungry about lust? What if we restrain ourselves and only eat at meals and snack times? I think your whole point is based on too many subjective and unestablished premises.

Take porn, for example.

Why not use masturbation as the example? Porn isn't masturbation, nor does masturbation have to include porn. It's a separate issue. You're including it in order to attempt to demonize what I consider to be a potentially sacred act.

but in our minds and hearts (in the moment of masturbation) we desire what we see.

What if what we really desire is our significant other, and we only look at it to remind ourselves of them?

Therefore, in that moment, we are all perverse and sexually perverted people who only seek self gratification at the expensive of another person.

Well that's sure built on faulty foundation. You make a very big leap there, based on assumptions you make about all of humanity, and use very strong language about it. And if we are truly only people who seek self gratification at the expense of another person (which I do not agree with at all) then wouldn't that be the way God made us?

If God were to take away His common grace and have all us do what we want to do in the heat of the moment, whether it be lust or hate, we'd all be the worst of men and woman.

So in other words, if all we had was the id, the animal mind, and not the parts that evolved later, we'd act like our ancestors, like animals. Just the same, if God removed our id, we would have no strong desires. Couldn't we conversely also get mad at God for giving us an id, and not fashioning us in some other way?

Its only the Sovereign God who restrains us and over comes our rebellion with His grace and love. Most people dont see this and they think they are good people.

But if we follow this line of thinking is it also not God who allows us to do things like murder and rape? If we give the good to God, should we not also give the bad?

Also, check out these these two sermons about "Sex and the Supremecy of Christ" which deals with the purpose of Sex, here: Part 1 and Part 2.

I'm really not interested in more missionizing. I had a little gift bag on my doorknob when I got home. I saw it on the doorknobs of my neighbors too. THought maybe someone gave everyone a present. Unfortunately, it was just garbage: a dvd about endtimes prophecies in the bible, and how they are suppossedly fulfilled today. So I've had my dose of obnoxious missionizing for the month, thank you very much.

Dauer