Mary as Co-Savior?

[InLove]

Peace, it is just an inquiry .

I have heard from a Protestant pulpit that some Catholics hold that Mary is a co-savior with Christ. I am newly aware of the concept of Mary as the new Eve as Christ was the new Adam.

Help?

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

Peace, it is just an inquiry .

I have heard from a Protestant pulpit that some Catholics hold that Mary is a co-savior with Christ. I am newly aware of the concept of Mary as the new Eve as Christ was the new Adam.

Help?

InPeace,
InLove

When I was a child (and was fussing about saying the rosary with my grandmother), I was told that as "bad" as I was that if I said my rosaries and for obvious reasons St. Peter would not let me in through the gates of Heaven, Mother Mary was known to open a window on the side and let a few in that way. But they would have to spend eternity in heaven's kitchen scrubbing the pots. Now did I want to spend eternity like that?

I have in reality (in the church), never heard of Mary being a Co-savior. Only that she is blessed among women, and so is the fruit of her womb.

v/r

Q

[InLove]

That is what I believe, also. I am so sorry that the truth has been so convoluted. I am sorry that so many wrong ideas float around. I know I couldn't do anything about it before, but now, because of you, maybe I can.

Thank you.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Wait--I should clear that up--not because of you, but because of the Truth. I just thank you for answering.

When one is in Love, one seeks those who are also in that Love. God is Love.

Thank you--I really need to know what I am talking about. I interact with many people of different faiths and religions on a daily basis. It helps me to hear from honest people. It is important.

InPeace,
InLove

[Bandit]

if you guys dont mind, I would like to add something that is revealed to me in the scriptures & I know to some others too. I never heard of Mary as co savior either, but it was through Jesus that Mary would also be saved.

How I see it also is, Man is through the woman & woman is through the man. First we have God who made a man, then out of the side of the man (Adam) he made a woman (Eve). -A Flesh seed is established-.

What I see with Mary & Jesus is the same exact creation/miracle. God made a man from the side (womb) of a woman.

When they pireced his side on the cross, blood & water came forth. This was the (symbolic) birth of the spiritual woman God had been waiting for.

The church (spiritual Eve) came from the side of Jesus, as Jesus brings the woman (people) back into loving favor with God. -A Spritual seed is established-

It is really neat & gets deep into the scriptures, but I will stop with that.

[JJM]

I'll try to explain Mary as co-redemptrix the best I can. The first thing you have to understand is that for Catholics Mary is the perfect Christian and is the perfect example of how to be a disciple of Christ so many titles are given to her to be examples to all of us. So with that in mind Catholics believe that we are all called to be co-redeemers with Christ. By uniting our sufferings with Christ we can receive Grace (the strength to do his will) from God for ourselves and others. This is why the Old Testament sacrifices had any effect because they were untied to Christ’s future death. The more closely our suffering is united to Christ’s the more effect it has. Mary, while Jesus was suffering, suffered right along with him, as any mother would for her suffering son. So Mary, because her suffering was united more with Christ’s than anyone else’s, (not only was she suffering because Christ was suffering but while he was suffering) received more graces for that suffering than any other suffering (save Christ’s which is the source of these graces anyway.) of any other person in earth’s history. So the title Co-redemptrix is a title given to Mary to emphasize two things 1.Our call to be co-redeemers 2.How closely Mary's suffering was to Christ’s.

[JJM]

It is probably also important to note that this isn't an official title but Pope John Paul the Great did use it in encyclicals.

[precept]

Originally Posted by JJM

I'll try to explain Mary as co-redemptrix the best I can. The first thing you have to understand is that for Catholics Mary is the perfect Christian and is the perfect example of how to be a disciple of Christ so many titles are given to her to be examples to all of us. So with that in mind Catholics believe that we are all called to be co-redeemers with Christ. By uniting our sufferings with Christ we can receive Grace (the strength to do his will) from God for ourselves and others. This is why the Old Testament sacrifices had any effect because they were untied?to Christ’s future death. The more closely our suffering is united to Christ’s the more effect it has. Mary, while Jesus was suffering, suffered right along with him, as any mother would for her suffering son. So Mary, because her suffering was united more with Christ’s than anyone else’s, (not only was she suffering because Christ was suffering but while he was suffering) received more graces for that suffering than any other suffering (save Christ’s which is the source of these graces anyway.) of any other person in earth’s history. So the title Co-redemptrix is a title given to Mary to emphasize two things 1.Our call to be co-redeemers 2.How closely Mary's suffering was to Christ’s.

1 Corinthians 5:7 ".......For even Christ our passover is Sacrificed for us"

It was during passover that the paschal lamb was offered for a sacrifice from the time the ancient Israelites left Eygpt till thousands of years later when Christ came to earth and Himself was sacrificed as the Passover Lamb of God!as Paul attests in 1 Corinthians 5:7.



precept

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by precept

1 Corinthians 5:7 ".......For even Christ our passover is Sacrificed for us"

It was during passover that the paschal lamb was offered for a sacrifice from the time the ancient Israelites left Eygpt till thousands of years later when Christ came to earth and Himself was sacrificed as the Passover Lamb of God!as Paul attests in 1 Corinthians 5:7.



precept

It does not matter, and yes we are aware of Jesus' saving us. A question was asked about how some can consider Mary as a co-savior. I suggest you leave it be...

Q

[JJM]

Originally Posted by precept

1 Corinthians 5:7 ".......For even Christ our passover is Sacrificed for us"

It was during passover that the paschal lamb was offered for a sacrifice from the time the ancient Israelites left Eygpt till thousands of years later when Christ came to earth and Himself was sacrificed as the Passover Lamb of God!as Paul attests in 1 Corinthians 5:7.



precept

What is your point? So the NT fulfills the OT, and the OT prefigures the NT. That doesn't change the fact that all Grace comes from Christ's death (John 1:17, Romans 5:12 - 21, Romans 1:4-5 Rev 1:4) so if these sacrifices gave any Grace then they received it from Christ's sacrifice.





I'll explain Redemptive suffering from a Biblical perspective later but I have to go now.

[precept]

Originally Posted by JJM

What is your point? So the NT fulfills the OT, and the OT prefigures the NT. That doesn't change the fact that all Grace comes from Christ's death Romans - 21, Romans 1:4-5 Rev 1:4) so if these sacrifices gave any Grace then they received it from Christ's sacrifice.

The sacrifices of the ancient Jews as practiced in the old testament were deliberately designed by God to teach humanity[through the ancient Jews} "that without the shedding of blood, THERE COULD BE NO REMISSION OF SINS" Hebrews 9:22

God knew that each sacrifice as brought to the priest by the sinning Israelites; that that sacrifice had no power in itself to forgive any sin; neither did the priest who offered the sacrifice had any power to authorize or guarantee that the sinner's sin had been forgiven.But while God knew this......the Israelites didn't! They were only told to do this practice when they sinned, and this they did.

Because the Israelites came to believe that they could only be forgiven of their sins via the medium of sacrifices; and hence only gain God's favor through this practice, they refused to believe that this practice was given them to prepare them for the real Sacrifice, the Son of God Himself. Fact is; they had completely lost the significance of the practice of sacrifices and disassociated the practice from God's original intent; so that when the Son of God came to earth to fulfill the original intent of the sacrifices, ie. to die once in the place of each and every animal sacrifice; and once in the place of each and every sinner who was so condemned to die for his own sins.... and so the ancient Israelites rejected God's original plan, by claiming that not only did God not have a son; but that God would not sanction the sacrifice of humans, seeing God himself condemned their ancient kings for practicing human sacrifices. They then orchestrated the killing of God's Son by arresting him and because they had no power to kill him; had the Romans do it through a mock trial.

The Romans condemned Jesus to death with the full participation of the Jewish leadership who could have put a stop to the trial if they had believed that indeed Jesus was the Son of God. So by proxy they were as guilty of His death as were the Romans and as is every sinner, you and me.

The Grace of God existed in the past as well as in the present; in that He doesn't demand the death of each sinner that sins against Him as His law demanded. The wicked that die in his/her sins is already condemned to eternal death, which is the just reward of every sinner who refuses to repent of his/her sins against God. The righteous or the sinner who repents, whether in the past as in the ancient Israelites or as in the present as you and me, will be forgiven, and hence is saved from eternal death; but only then through the Grace of God is such a sinner saved; past! or present!

So the "blood of animals"[eg the blood of a sheep] while not having any power to forgive sins; yet represented THE ETERNAL POWER OF THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB that did have the POWER TO FORGIVE NOT ONLY THE SINS OF THE INDIVIDUAL; BUT THE SINS OF EVERY HUMAN WHO EVER LIVED as long as such a human believed that the Eternal Son of God would one day die for such a complete and forever forgiveness of all sins; and thus eliminate the practice of animal sacrifices, now that the practice of animal sacrifices had been fulfilled as they were so intended in the first place.

Because the ancient Jews as well as present Judaism still refuse to believe that this was God's original intent; they still to this day believe that such sacrifices as designed by God should still be used by the sinner to ask forgiveness of God whenever any sinner sins [they do not believe that this concept is universally applicable-just to Jews it is, they believe].
It is this wrong belief that the apostle Paul addresses, when he says that "belief in the blood of animals to forgive sins" was never the intent; seeing that "no animal's blood as any such power". He by so saying; was not saying that the practice of offering animal sacrifices was wrong in any fashion; he though was saying that such a practice was now wrong it's having been fulfilled as was its original design in the first place. The practice, in other words, was now unnecessary and redundant, now that the Eternal sacrifice Himself had been offered up for the sins of entire humanity.

The Israelites then and now still refuse to accept this fact of God's original design to eradicate sin and sinners from His universe; but His Grace exhibited by proxy through the sacrifice of animals in the past and exhibited in the sacrifice of His Son for all who will accept Him in the present; is one and the same Grace God has always displayed for all humanty in every age since His creation of humans.



precept

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by precept

The sacrifices of the ancient Jews as practiced in the old testament were deliberately designed by God to teach humanity[through the ancient Jews} "that without the shedding of blood, THERE COULD BE NO REMISSION OF SINS" Hebrews 9:22

God knew that each sacrifice as brought to the priest by the sinning Israelites; that that sacrifice had no power in itself to forgive any sin; neither did the priest who offered the sacrifice had any power to authorize or guarantee that the sinner's sin had been forgiven.But while God knew this......the Israelites didn't! They were only told to do this practice when they sinned, and this they did.

Because the Israelites came to believe that they could only be forgiven of their sins via the medium of sacrifices; and hence only gain God's favor through this practice, they refused to believe that this practice was given them to prepare them for the real Sacrifice, the Son of God Himself. Fact is; they had completely lost the significance of the practice of sacrifices and disassociated the practice from God's original intent; so that when the Son of God came to earth to fulfill the original intent of the sacrifices, ie. to die once in the place of each and every animal sacrifice; and once in the place of each and every sinner who was so condemned to die for his own sins.... and so the ancient Israelites rejected God's original plan, by claiming that not only did God not have a son; but that God would not sanction the sacrifice of humans, seeing God himself condemned their ancient kings for practicing human sacrifices. They then orchestrated the killing of God's Son by arresting him and because they had no power to kill him; had the Romans do it through a mock trial.

The Romans condemned Jesus to death with the full participation of the Jewish leadership who could have put a stop to the trial if they had believed that indeed Jesus was the Son of God. So by proxy they were as guilty of His death as were the Romans and as is every sinner, you and me.

The Grace of God existed in the past as well as in the present; in that He doesn't demand the death of each sinner that sins against Him as His law demanded. The wicked that die in his/her sins is already condemned to eternal death, which is the just reward of every sinner who refuses to repent of his/her sins against God. The righteous or the sinner who repents, whether in the past as in the ancient Israelites or as in the present as you and me, will be forgiven, and hence is saved from eternal death; but only then through the Grace of God is such a sinner saved; past! or present!

So the "blood of animals"[eg the blood of a sheep] while not having any power to forgive sins; yet represented THE ETERNAL POWER OF THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB that did have the POWER TO FORGIVE NOT ONLY THE SINS OF THE INDIVIDUAL; BUT THE SINS OF EVERY HUMAN WHO EVER LIVED as long as such a human believed that the Eternal Son of God would one day die for such a complete and forever forgiveness of all sins; and thus eliminate the practice of animal sacrifices, now that the practice of animal sacrifices had been fulfilled as they were so intended in the first place.

Because the ancient Jews as well as present Judaism still refuse to believe that this was God's original intent; they still to this day believe that such sacrifices as designed by God should still be used by the sinner to ask forgiveness of God whenever any sinner sins [they do not believe that this concept is universally applicable-just to Jews it is, they believe].
It is this wrong belief that the apostle Paul addresses, when he says that "belief in the blood of animals to forgive sins" was never the intent; seeing that "no animal's blood as any such power". He by so saying; was not saying that the practice of offering animal sacrifices was wrong in any fashion; he though was saying that such a practice was now wrong it's having been fulfilled as was its original design in the first place. The practice, in other words, was now unnecessary and redundant, now that the Eternal sacrifice Himself had been offered up for the sins of entire humanity.

The Israelites then and now still refuse to accept this fact of God's original design to eradicate sin and sinners from His universe; but His Grace exhibited by proxy through the sacrifice of animals in the past and exhibited in the sacrifice of His Son for all who will accept Him in the present; is one and the same Grace God has always displayed for all humanty in every age since His creation of humans.



precept

Ignore the warning again...and I will take action. This is not a bashing place Precept. Nor do you know what you are talking about... Discuss, but do not bash...I can not get any clearer than that.

v/r

Q

[precept]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Ignore the warning again...and I will take action. This is not a bashing place Precept. Nor do you know what you are talking about... Discuss, but do not bash...I can not get any clearer than that.

v/r

Q

I am not bothered by your threats Q; such is the position of those who have no defense; and would rather propagate delusions for truth.


precept

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by precept

I am not bothered by your threats Q; such is the position of those who have no defense; and would rather propagate delusions for truth.


precept

No sir, I do not threaten, ever. I just do. Speak easy, or go away. Your choice.

Q

[precept]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No sir, I do not threaten, ever. I just do. Speak easy, or go away. Your choice.

Q

I have on just about every occasion provided support for my arguments quoting the many references of scripture or recognized scholarly authors. You name me once you have even bothered to refer to your sources quoting same to support your arguments.

Heed then your own admonition! Since you cannot provide, at the very least, not an iota of support for your positions...heed your own admonition!..."speak easy, or go away". When you can support your fictious imaginings with credible references, you may return!


precept