magick and religion

[Susma Rio Sep]

Curse and religion go together.

But Christianity tells us not to curse. Well, not in a private capacity on a person of no public outrage.

Curse is understood as calling harms on other people. And in the Old Testament there is a lot of cursing, from God Himself, from community leaders, from religious authorities, and even from heads of family.

Now, if there are religious practitioners who know the mechanics of cursing in the way of bringing harms to other people, then I have a very useful suggestion to the government police and judicial authorities to use them, in this manner. They should learn from these religious talents on the art of cursing effectively. And these government officials can be justified in resorting to cursing, because they are public leaders in charge of the community’s welfare.

On the appointed day and time, in a regular event, the government officials entrusted with the duty of cursing will go on public television nation-wide or community-wide as the case dictates, and curse the criminals who manage to escape the clutches of the law.

“May those who kill with impunity, who steal with no remorse, who kidnap with no regard to the sorrows of mothers, suffer horrible painful diseases, and be an abominable sight to anyone in their midst.” (Not excluding politicians and corporate con artists, of course.)

I think such a public cursing from public authorities will at least make the life of unrepentant hardened recalcitrant criminals reap no comfort but only extreme angst from their wicked deeds.

Susma Rio Sep

[WHKeith]

Ya got me, bruagach! I had a brain fart, and wrote "Fortune" the other day when I meant "Valiente." You're quite right, of course.

Susma . . . my problem with cursing criminals is bound up in the Law of Threefold Return. Put that kind of energy out, and it WILL come back, threefold. I don't see this as a mathematical equation for magic so much as a statement of principle. (I know of one less-than-ethical witch who claimed he knew his black-magic spells were working when he started having runs of bad luck in his life!)

In Christian terms, I would put this in the category of "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Not all of us kill, but we all hate, at times. Not all kidnap, but we all put constraints on the free will of others at times, whether deliberately or no. Not all of us ignore the suffering of mothers, but we all turn our eyes away from the suffering of others, at times, or act callously or unthinkingly or unfeelingly.

Words are far more powerful than most of us realize. Thoughts may be the most powerful agent in this reality. I know *I* wouldn't want the job of State Curser of Criminals!

[fire-nymph]

Originally Posted by WHKeith

Ya got me, bruagach! I had a brain fart, and wrote "Fortune" the other day when I meant "Valiente." You're quite right, of course.

Susma . . . my problem with cursing criminals is bound up in the Law of Threefold Return. Put that kind of energy out, and it WILL come back, threefold. I don't see this as a mathematical equation for magic so much as a statement of principle. (I know of one less-than-ethical witch who claimed he knew his black-magic spells were working when he started having runs of bad luck in his life!)

In Christian terms, I would put this in the category of "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Not all of us kill, but we all hate, at times. Not all kidnap, but we all put constraints on the free will of others at times, whether deliberately or no. Not all of us ignore the suffering of mothers, but we all turn our eyes away from the suffering of others, at times, or act callously or unthinkingly or unfeelingly.

Words are far more powerful than most of us realize. Thoughts may be the most powerful agent in this reality. I know *I* wouldn't want the job of State Curser of Criminals!

But surely...
The three-fold-law is based on 'karma', yes?
And if so, the person casting the spell has to acknowledge either subconsciously or consciously that what he/she is doing is morally 'wrong'.
So, if someone's cursing a criminal and believes 100% what they're doing is morally just, then it won't infact come back on them, yes?
Isn't that how Karma works?

(Ah the confusion )

(not that I agree with cursing criminals, I'm just struggling to understand this three-fold-law that wiccans are so into...)

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by fire-nymph

But surely...
The three-fold-law is based on 'karma', yes?
And if so, the person casting the spell has to acknowledge either subconsciously or consciously that what he/she is doing is morally 'wrong'.
So, if someone's cursing a criminal and believes 100% what they're doing is morally just, then it won't infact come back on them, yes?
Isn't that how Karma works?

(Ah the confusion )

(not that I agree with cursing criminals, I'm just struggling to understand this three-fold-law that wiccans are so into...)

Karma and the threefold law can be described as basic cause-and-effect. Another way to think of it is "everything has consequences."

This affects all actions, all decisions (even decisions to not act in a particular circumstance.) It doesn't matter whether anyone involved had good or evil intentions, whether the result was doing harm or doing good. If you do something, there will be consequences. And because everything is connected we will definitely feel the consequences of our decisions and actions.

It's a mistake to think of karma or the Wiccan threefold law as being only applicable to bad things. If you send out love, you most certainly get results back too, most often the same type of thing you sent out. A large part of working magick successfully is learning how to see the connections between things, and knowing how careful actions (or careful refraining from actions) can set consequences in motion that you hope for.

Karma and the Wiccan threefold law are not just applicable to magickal acts either, but to everything we do. If I am kind to others, I am much more likely to get kindness back. If I am cruel to others, then I can expect cruelty back.

Some people talk about karma as being "fate" as though it's predetermined. When you look at it as being the consequences that result from decisions, then it's clear that karma is hardly about predetermination but about determining one's own future by acting in the present. It's also about recognizing how our present situation is a direct result of things that we have done in the past. It's about being responsible for our circumstances.

[brucegdc]

Originally Posted by fire-nymph

But surely...
The three-fold-law is based on 'karma', yes?
And if so, the person casting the spell has to acknowledge either subconsciously or consciously that what he/she is doing is morally 'wrong'.
So, if someone's cursing a criminal and believes 100% what they're doing is morally just, then it won't infact come back on them, yes?
Isn't that how Karma works?

(Ah the confusion )

(not that I agree with cursing criminals, I'm just struggling to understand this three-fold-law that wiccans are so into...)

Karma doesn't care about justice. Nor is the three-fold-law strictly equivalent to Karma.

If I do something, it has a consequence. If I do something that harms someone, whether or not it is "just" to do so, I will reap the consequences from that (as with all other actions) - usually in at least the same amount that I did. (Often more so - hence the three-fold). If I use violence to do something, then it is more likely that violence will return to me - no matter what that is I was trying to do. It may be stopping someone from hitting someone else by hitting them first - a "good" deed. My reasons don't count - just the actions.

Which is probably why a lot of magic users don't worry about black/white - since that's usually a matter of intent, but do worry about the means.

It's a bit of a balancing act - taking action has consequences but not acting also has consequences. Means you have to think about your actions and what could come of them.

[Baud]

My understanding of Karma is that it's concept is more limited than the three-fold law (not to be understood in a negative sense). Karma (in short and as far as I know) is the principle that the current life is a part of a chain of lives (Samsara) of which the characteristics of each is determined by the acts perfromed (or not) in the previous ones. So in that sense Karma means that your current acts will influence your next life.

Wiccans who believe in reincarnation would say that the three-fold law will obviously influence your next lifes, and in that sense, it could be said that the three-fold law includes the Karma principle as well. However, this is just incidental. The three-fold law will have consequences in this life (if you are mean to people, they will be mean to you tomorrow and the next day, whether you are alive or not), as well as possibly in the next.

Moreover, I see an additional difference (and please people possibly more familiar with Karma than me correct me if I am wrong here). I have the impression that the Karma principle is in a sense more "structured" than the three-fold law. Karma "accumulates" good and bad things you have done and orients the reincarnation process in a certain direction based on that "package" (one could say, "the weighted average" of your deeds) that could actually cover an extremely long time. In a sense then, Karma is a continuously flowing principle. The three-fold law, in my opinion, has a more "punctual" effect. It happens more on a case-by-case basis (although not strictly speaking one by one), not over such a long period of time, and in a more "chaotic" way.

Baud

[Susma Rio Sep]

WHKeith writes:

My understanding of Karma is that it's concept is more limited than the three-fold law (not to be understood in a negative sense). Karma (in short and as far as I know) is the principle that the current life is a part of a chain of lives (Samsara) of which the characteristics of each is determined by the acts perfromed (or not) in the previous ones. So in that sense Karma means that your current acts will influence your next life.

About Karma in general, of the bad vibration type:

I have thought about that problem, and that is why I took care to state that public officials be the ones to do it, the cursing. And they should, even with the professional hazards involved, which is part of the bargain they entered into in assuming public office. Then no particular person can be returned with Karma, only public officials and then it's their professional hazards.

Maybe they can use a computer of sorts, to act in the general name of the State, as in cases of criminal law where the State is the official complainant.

Susma Rio Sep