liberal vs. literal Christian

[China Cat Sunflower]

I come from a conservative, literalist, evangelical Christian background. My father is a Seventh-day Adventist minister. I was born in Pakistan where my parents were missionaries. I grew up in Asia, the Far East, and Africa. Within conservative Christian circles there very often seems to be a near obsession with stripping away any Pagan influence from Christianity. I guess the idea is to preserve a strictly Judeo-Christian understanding of the Bible. But for anyone who has studied the Bible extensively, and I have, I would pose this question: Strip away everything Pagan and what is left? Almost nothing, IMO. The very concept of a dead and risen avatar goes back to Osiris and beyond.

Someone mentioned levels, or layers of meaning in the Bible. Consider this:

According to myth, Zeus let fly two eagles from the opposite ends of the earth. The eagles flew toward each other at equal speed and met at the Greek town of Delphi, and the point at which they met was the center of the entire earth. This point was marked by the omphalos stone in the temple of Apollo. Omphalos means “navel” and the omphalos marks not only the center of the earth, but the center of the universe as well. This foundation stone symbolically represents the center of sacred space.

Other sacred cultures possessed omphalos stones in one form or another as well. The oldest known omphalos was the ben-ben at Heliopolis, the theological center of Egypt, which was established around 3350 B.C.E. Also notable are the Rock of Foundation at Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem, and the Lia Fal, or king-making stone at Tara, Ireland.

The esoteric cosmological symbolism of the early Christian gnosis was based upon the inherited teachings of the earlier Greek theological science. In the same way that Apollo possessed his omphalos stone at Delphi, it was imperative that the New Song of the Solar Logos be built upon an appropriate foundation. Thus in the words of Jesus, “I say unto thee, thou art Peter, and upon this rock (petra I will build my Church. The Greek word Peter is literally petros, rock, and elsewhere Jesus gives Simon the name of “Cephas”, based on the Aramaic word for rock: “Thou are Simon, the son of John; thou shall be called Cephas (which is interpreted as Peter.)

The name Cephas was not chosen at random for, by gematria, it amounts to 729, and represents the cubic foundation stone… This number was most important to Plato and the Pythagoreans; not only is it a cube (9x9x9), but it is also a square (27x27), and is associated with the nature of the solar year.

Most appropriately, in the important yet little-known Clementine Homilies, Simon Petros teaches the following doctrine: God possesses ”shape”, for beauty cannot exist without shape. This shape may be perceived by the pure of heart, although God’s shape does not exist in three-dimensional space. Rather, the form of God underlies the structure of three-dimensional space. God exists at the center and heart of the universe and his form radiates the six directions of space while he contains within the seventh point of rest: “He is, as it were, in the center of the infinite, being the limit of the universe…For in Him the six infinites end, and from Him they receive their extension to infinity.”

David Fideler, Jesus Christ, Sun of God-Ancient cosmology and Early Christian Symbolism

O.K., to make this easy to understand, imagine a cube with sides that are sectioned into smaller squares like a kamea. This cube has sides that are 9x9 squares. 9x9x9=729 total smaller cubes that make up the larger cube. Such a cube has a total surface area of 9x9x6 sides=486. Gematria of the name Cephas=729, Petra=486. This is the foundation stone, or omphalos of Christian Church. The reason the number 729 refers to the solar year is that it is the sum of days and nights: 365+364=729. A magic square of 27x27=729 smaller squares can be constructed so that all the numbers add up vertically, horizontally, and diagonally just like the smaller kameas of the planets. In the center square is the number 365. Neat eh?!

So, you can see that underneath the parables and stories in the NT there is, among other things, a layer of gematria that coresponds to Pythagorean geometrical concepts. Very Pagan!

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

A note to Brian: I'm not intending to go off on a tangent with the gematria thing, just using it as an example of the layered meanings of the Biblical text.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

A note to Brian: I'm not intending to go off on a tangent with the gematria thing, just using it as an example of the layered meanings of the Biblical text.

Chris

Dually noted Chris (on behalf of I, Brian), and by the way, Welcome to CR.

v/r

Quahom

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Wasn't it Dolly Parton's character in the movie Straight Talk who reminded us
that we must "Get off the cross, somebody may need the wood"?

andrew

Perhaps Taij, but it was as you stated, a ficticious character's comment, portrayed by Ms. Parton, and not Ms. Parton's personal opinion.

Also, we don't hang on a cross (never have). We "carry our cross". We don't try to pass it on to someone else, nor blame another for our burden. It is a "cross" of our own making, hence we are responsible for it.

However (and this is the good part), for those that believe, Jesus is quite clear on assuring us He will lighten our "burden". He will help up carry our cross.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

A way to distinguish the "wheat" from the "chaff."

I wouldn't recommend attempting to make bread from "chaff"...

[Thomas]

Sorry Chris - replied to Lunamoth on another thread about Gematria before reading your post to this one. Can you lay your hands on "Jesus Christ, Sun of God" easily? That's where I got the 153 fishes from...

Thomas

[lunamoth]

Hi Thomas, Thank you for the explanation in the other thread I started. I know little about numerology, aside from a vague sense that these recurring numbers are somehow related to perhaps the physical laws that govern things like chemical bonding and other natural phenomena. But, I can appreciate the symbology and the sacredness of certain numbers.

Having said that, when you start to use two, three or four different systems of interpreting text in various languages, don't you get to the point where you can make any word or name mean just about anything you want? Especially when you also have the options of adding the numbers in various ways after assigning numbers to them?

I'm intrigued, but also skeptical, I guess.

lunamoth

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Sorry Chris - replied to Lunamoth on another thread about Gematria before reading your post to this one. Can you lay your hands on "Jesus Christ, Sun of God" easily? That's where I got the 153 fishes from...

Thomas

Yes, I have the book. I only wish I could post some of the illustrations!

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Luna,

"Intrigued but skeptical" pretty much describes my outlook on a lot of things! It's a good way to be. I haven't responded on your post on the Judaism board because I'm not Jewish, so I can't really speak from that perspective. I'm still trying to figure out what's acceptible around here. I think you're right though about the possibility of making gematria or numerology be whatever a person wants, but the danger of self-delusion is ever-present in all facets metaphysics, spirituality, and religion. I guess each person has to decide how best to navigate in the spiritual realms.

Chris

[lunamoth]

Hi China Cat,

It makes sense to me that Jesus and his disciples, Paul and the apostles, would use symbols and rituals that people around them were used to and could relate to. I know a lot of Christians do make a big deal out of things like Christmas and Easter and various symbols and rituals being pagen, or influenced by pagen tradition, but many more do not. But, if Christ can transform hearts, why not rituals and traditions as well?

While I have not delved much into things like numerology in biblical interpretation, I think there are many valid avenues for diving down into the text. I also find that the historical and cultural information I glean, albeit in a very unorganized way through my reading, tends to deepen my appreciation of Christianity, and add layers of meaning, rather than stipping away the essentials.

But, that's just me...

lunamoth

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Dually noted Chris (on behalf of I, Brian), and by the way, Welcome to CR.

v/r

Quahom

Thank you! If I get out of line just let me know.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Hey, I graduated to Junior Member! I guess that means I can wear my Ninja Turtle underoos! Whoohoo!

Chris

[Bandit]

i shall be posting my liberal vs. literal beliefs in all the other religions soon.

it shall include all my beliefs & omit their literal religious beliefs, miracles & rituals & teachings.

this shall of course be my own personal 'liberal' view of islam, bahai, judaism, paganism, hinduism, buddhism, escoteric and all religions represented here.

Jesus the Messiah & King of Kings & the Bible shall be presented as an alternative & 'liberal' approach to the current beliefs in these other religions here at CR.
we are going to see Banidt as the 'liberal' muslim & the 'liberal' buddhist & the 'liberal' hindu & new ager, teaching the gospel of the death burial & resurrection & shall include ALL the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles and Prophets, of course from my liberal perspective of their religion.

since we are doing liberal Christianity, it shall only be fair to do liberal in other religions.
thank you for this opportunity to be a liberal in other religions.

[Quahom1]

All,

As you see, this thread has been moved from the Christian forum to Comparative Studies. The reason:

This thread is comparing two "policitcal/religious" views that are in opposition to each other, yet claiming to be of the same cloth (as it were). In the center circle is the Bible (Christian Bible). And the outskirts are those in various degrees of concurrance concerning the validity of said Christian Bible. Is I a real Christian, or is I a "timex Christian". Are we both Christian?

As I said, diametrically opposed views (with varying ranges in between), but emphasis is on political rather that faith based issues. Hence it deserves more "comparative study" in a more neutral forum.

v/r

Quahom

[Bandit]

awe shucks !
i was going to really get into the liberal thing in other religions, but the thread has been moved.

maybe some other time, cause i am sure it wont be long before it pops up again under a different title in Christian.

i am kind of bummed & happy at the same time that it was moved.
thank you everyone, for all those different alternative views, but i must stick with Jesus the good shephard.