Let's Discuss

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Silas

Again, yes we have free will. But with it, we choose to love sin and hate God.

Speak for yourself Silas.... Perhaps you might be misinterpreting what you read in the Bible? By free will, some choose to love God. There is no evidence that Enoch, Job, or David or many other Biblical characters by their free will loved sin and hated God as you say.... Perhaps you take a general statement and apply it to all in error?

Peace,
JM

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Silas

I cannot doubt that you've loved your god and sought him as far back as you can remember. However, holy writ shall be my measuring rod and I can only affirm with it that "none seek after God (Rom 3:11)." Therefore, in my attempt to let God be true and every man a liar, I must believe that your god isnt God - for none sought Him and None loved Him, save those who He has given grace that they may see that He first loved them with an incredible and mighty love where which He proved in the agony of His believed Son, Jesus.

And so, once again, I am condemned by someone who barely knows me and apparently thinks that despite by many years of dedication to Christ, "my god" is not God.

I saw this coming, but figured the conversation was interesting enough anyway, and besides, I'm used to this sort of thing.

I would ask you... is it not possible that although I don't agree with your views, I love God because "He has given grace" to me? Do you really think that your own understanding is sufficient to judge my salvation?

My point was that we are told by Jesus Christ in the gospels to be as children in our faith. And I know lots and lots of little children who love God and know He loves them. I don't know lots of kids who make things as complicated as you are making them, or as dogmatic.

But, as always, it really just doesn't matter to me if you think I am saved or not. I've long known that every breath I take is only because of the grace of God, and Christ has long been my friend, my comfort, my Savior, and my Lord. There isn't much that shakes my faith in my God and Savior. I readily admit all the time that I don't have all the answers and that my understanding is limited (as is all humans') and is a work in progress. But I will never renounce the faith I have in my God, or the truth of my own testimony- that He knew me before I was born, and I was blessed to have parents that encouraged my spiritual growth in Him from birth, and thus (in this lifetime) I have ever loved God.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Speak for yourself Silas.... Perhaps you might be misinterpreting what you read in the Bible? By free will, some choose to love God. There is no evidence that Enoch, Job, or David or many other Biblical characters by their free will loved sin and hated God as you say.... Perhaps you take a general statement and apply it to all in error?

Peace,
JM

Perhaps? But then again, you may not understand as you ought your sin and how bad before God you really are apart from Christ. Here, I'll use two seemingly small scriptures (as we might consider them so) to bring out a huge point:

1. "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Rom. 14:23)
2. "We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)

These are great pillars that fall with great power to crush man's pride, for the make clear that the issue before God is NOT that we have sinned, but that we've done nothing but sin in his eyes. This is the reason why NO man can be saved unless he comes through the Christ the Savior, for he has NO goodness in God's eyes, though he may see different. Now why did I mention all of that? They dont really have much if any to do with your statement, right? Well, I hope to show you something about our love for sin and our free will. I first showed you that before God that we have done nothing but sin apart from Christ. I want you to try to understand that as best as you could...if you are saved, it will make Christ all the more precious to you. Next I want you to see that man's love for sin keeps him away from coming to God through Christ, though he make seek other ways to appease his conscience. You maintain that some use their free will to love God and come to Jesus. I affairm with scritpure that "NONE seek after God and that NO ONE can come to Jesus unless the Father first draw them." Now, why cant anyone come to Christ unless the Father draws them? Its simply because we love darkness rather than light. We choose NOT to come. Let scripture tell it:

"There is NONE righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, no one who seeks after God. All have turned away, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, not even one. Their throats are open graces, the posison of asp are under their lips. Their mouth are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood, ruin and misery are in their paths, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Seriously dude, this is man apart from Christ - NONE LOVE HIM and NONE SEEK after Him. We are happy and content in sin and want nothing to do with God. This is what God tells us in His word. Its a hard truth, but by God's grace you can see it, at least to some degree if you are born again, for you must first see God's exceeding Holiness to understand His absolute abhorance of sin.

[Silas]

For: PathofOne

And so, once again, I am condemned by someone who barely knows me and apparently thinks that despite by many years of dedication to Christ, "my god" is not God.

No, dont misunderstand what I say. Im not condemning you as I cannot. Thats God's job. Im only saying that scriptures teach that none seek after God. You say you have, so its either you are correct and God is wrong, or vise verse. I beileve God. All that said, I really do hope you are saved! I dont want anyone going to hell.

I saw this coming, but figured the conversation was interesting enough anyway, and besides, I'm used to this sort of thing.

K.

I would ask you... is it not possible that although I don't agree with your views, I love God because "He has given grace" to me? Do you really think that your own understanding is sufficient to judge my salvation?

Again, I havent judged your salvation. I dont even know what you believe. If you have repented and placed your trust in Jesus (the Biblical one), you are saved and I will praise God for you as I praise Him for me.

My point was that we are told by Jesus Christ in the gospels to be as children in our faith. And I know lots and lots of little children who love God and know He loves them. I don't know lots of kids who make things as complicated as you are making them, or as dogmatic.

Again the issue comes down to Is God in the Bible right about none loving Him and seeking Him, or are you right in that some do? I believe God and the Bible.

But, as always, it really just doesn't matter to me if you think I am saved or not. I've long known that every breath I take is only because of the grace of God, and Christ has long been my friend, my comfort, my Savior, and my Lord. There isn't much that shakes my faith in my God and Savior. I readily admit all the time that I don't have all the answers and that my understanding is limited (as is all humans') and is a work in progress. But I will never renounce the faith I have in my God, or the truth of my own testimony- that He knew me before I was born, and I was blessed to have parents that encouraged my spiritual growth in Him from birth, and thus (in this lifetime) I have ever loved God.

You sound as if you really love God. To know what you were apart from Christ and what God did for you anyway, namely send His Son to suffer the wrath you deserved, should only cause you to love and appriciate your Savior more. My advice to you is to read the Bible more and be honest to what it says you were apart from Christ. Again, if you love Him, it will only grow as you will begin to understand just how amazing grace really is!

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Silas

"There is NONE righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, no one who seeks after God. All have turned away, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, not even one. Their throats are open graces, the posison of asp are under their lips. Their mouth are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood, ruin and misery are in their paths, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Seriously dude, this is man apart from Christ - NONE LOVE HIM and NONE SEEK after Him. We are happy and content in sin and want nothing to do with God. This is what God tells us in His word. Its a hard truth, but by God's grace you can see it, at least to some degree if you are born again, for you must first see God's exceeding Holiness to understand His absolute abhorance of sin.

I think perhaps you may want to look into the context surrounding this Psalm. The scriptures are best interpreted when read with both the guidance of the Spirit and with careful study of historical context.

That said, thank you for understanding better where I'm coming from. I may not agree with a lot of what you say, and I'm not shy about sharing what I do believe, but I don't feel that you have to believe as I do. I merely justify my own beliefs and offer what I can for mutually understanding and learning; I am not one to try to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I simply ask for the same respect given to me.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I think perhaps you may want to look into the context surrounding this Psalm. The scriptures are best interpreted when read with both the guidance of the Spirit and with careful study of historical context.

That said, thank you for understanding better where I'm coming from. I may not agree with a lot of what you say, and I'm not shy about sharing what I do believe, but I don't feel that you have to believe as I do. I merely justify my own beliefs and offer what I can for mutually understanding and learning; I am not one to try to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I simply ask for the same respect given to me.

I agree with everything you said except the part about converting people. While I know that I cannot convert anyone, I am conscious about giving a good gospel presentation in the hopes that God may use it to save someone. By the way, take a look at the Psa., the truth is still the same...none seek after God. Also,

[Quahom1]

"Can I speak with people of God (Christians) for a moment alone please? Guys, I was wondering how you understand free will. Please explain how you understand it as I'd like to try to understand my own views by juxtaposition of other saints. Also, I know the scripture tell that we must repent and come to Christ that we may flee the wrath that is to come. My other question is, since that command is so explicited, do you suppose that man can come in and of his own strenght or willingness, and that God will not command something that He knows we cannot proform?"

Original question...:


Are we having fun yet?

First off this is a loaded thread. "people of God (Christians)"...please. Second of all free will is exactly that...free of will. Which means anyone can post here. Third of all, there ain't no saints alive at this point and time. They don't become saints until and unless they are dead and did some mighty fine miracles whilst alive...

Fourth, it is Christ that determines when a soul is repentent, not a man.

Fifth, man comes to any such a position in life based soley on God's graces (so your argument is mute).

Finally, do not tempt the Lord thy God, nor put His servants to the test. It isn't anyone's job but God's to test a man of God's resolve.

I believe I've made things quite clear here...I'm also a moderator here.

Please, be kind to eachother...

v/r

Joshua

[Gnostradamus]

Hi Terrence, welcome back to CR.

[moseslmpg]

Originally Posted by Silas

Thanks for your imput, friend. But please understand, I was hoping for a Christian view on this, OK?

Thanks!

Hmm, this may be a little late, but what makes you think that I'm not Christian? Is it the Brain?

[Silas]

Nah. I actually looked at some of your other responces and they werent Bible based. So you have repented and placed your trust in Jesus alone that you may be saved from your rebellion against a Holy God and you've been born again?

[moseslmpg]

Well, I vaguely remember doing some of that, but I'm not entirely sure. Anyway, I guess it doesn't matter now, after 4 pages.

[Silas]

Being born again is sort of like being hit by a bus, but more vivid. If you dont remember it, chances are that it never occured to you. I'm not trying to be a jerk when I tell you this, but you really need to consider Christ. The only reason that you live and breathe now is because God is pleased to let you. Use your borrowed time to seek the Christ. All who seek will find. You have his promise - He never lies!

[Thomas]

Hi Silas –

I agree that man has a free will, as evident in scripture.
Don't lose touch with the fact that free will is a gift of God, and given for a purpose.

But agian, I see from scripture that will is bound in a willingness to love sin and hate God.
Well those are somewhat extreme words ... remember who they were addressed to, by whom, and when.

The condemnations of the Prophets, for example, are directed at a people who willfully abandoned the 'Ways of their Fathers' (and the Way of God) in pusuit of false idols.

That much, I agree, still stands today.

Can you show me from scritpture one person who choose to serve God out of His/her own will, pior to God's grace?

Well, there's a 'trick' question (although no trick intended on your part). Can I show you, for instance, how a person chooses to serve God in a way that God has not already ordained? No. Can I show you one person who chose to serve God and did not find the Holy Spirit calling him? No.

'God is closer to you than your jugular vein' the Moslems say, and they are right. There is nowhere you can turn, if turning towards the good, and find God is not there already.

God created man, and He had our ultimate good in view, as it were, so there's nowhere we can go, towards our ultimate good, that we will not find God there, waiting for us.

Where we go wrong is in determining what is the ultimate good for ourselves, and what's the right way of going about it. The notion of 'I know what's best for me' is so obviously wrong that it hardly bears presenting as an argument, but many do.

God calls all men, always, and at all times, so there is no man who answers the call 'prior' to god's grace ... how can there be?

But does that then mean that man's free will is meaningless? No. The point is that man is free to answer his vocation or refuse it, and the decision to follow one's calling, or not, is prior to God's grace – God's grace abounds, as St Paul tells us, even when we refuse Him, because as much as we have given up on Him, he never gives up on us.

To answer your question directly –
Consider the story of the Pharisee and the publican (Luke 18:10); or the widow's mite (Mark 12:42) – these two alone signify those who are 'justified' in the eyes of God because of their virtue – and in both cases that virtue is humility ... Consider the fact that God brought Lot out of Sodom and Gomorrah, and that He gave Noah His word that He would not act against the world again...

Think of the healing of the Centurion's daughter (Matthew 8:5-13) – I think there is a message there for you, and those who oppose you.

+++

No man is brought to God through fear, Silas (that's been tried, and has demonstrably failed) – because they are already enclosed in their own dark fears – the Way of God is the Way of Love, and that is how He wants His creature to serve Him.

Thomas

[Silas]

Think of the healing of the Centurion's daughter (Matthew 8:5-13) – I think there is a message there for you, and those who oppose you.

Grace always proceeds faith. Jesus said..."Unless a man is born again from above, he cannot even "see" the kingdom of God." Moreover, unless he is born form the spirit "he cannot even understand spiritual things." The Centurion was given soverign grace by God to believe in Jesus. This was the first gentile in the NT to believe in Jesus - a foreshadow of what was soon to follow, namely, Gentiles being grafted in and beliving upon the Jewish Messiah.

No man is brought to God through fear, Silas (that's been tried, and has demonstrably failed) – because they are already enclosed in their own dark fears – the Way of God is the Way of Love, and that is how He wants His creature to serve Him.

You know why fear wont bring anyone to God? Its because man is too stupid to fear God. NONE fear God (pior to and growth in salvation). No one comes to God on their own that they might be saved. Rather, we love sin and its pleasures. People only think about god when the awful consequences of sin occure. Then they seek after "god" and curse him for letting bad things happen. Yet a little while again, their back loving sin and forgetting about God. And Jesus' words are true..."No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me first draw Him." Only when a work of grace is done to man and He sees Himself for the filty beast he is, and is striped of all ideas that he can reform or change himself, does he appriciate or Love His bleeding Savior. So yes, the ways of God is love. So much so, that He has mercy on God hating fools that he can easily crush for their insolence. Only after our spiritual eyes have been opened do we understand how amazing grace really is. And we sing with all the saints of the ages..."We love Him because He first loved us."

[Thomas]

Hi Silas –

You know why fear wont bring anyone to God? Its because man is too stupid to fear God.

Love is the way to go, in my book.

Thomas.