Let's Discuss - Page 2

Cage · 12-09-2006, 06:46 AM

We choose our destiny, we choose our paths, and in the end, we choose virtue or vice, heaven or hell, life or death, satisfation or discontent, the Spiritual or carnal...It's all in the heart of Man.

We are programed to recieve, as I view creation as a perfect self justifying mechanism. In the end we discern the mechnism, and decide for ourselves the right path for us. [Free will]

Greed, fear, bitterness, anger, and jealousy are all emotions each person has experienced that come by way of vice, but do they satisfy? Many cling to them like they're a lifeforce, but there is no real satisfaction in them, imo. The same goes with money. One would think money would/could satisfy, or more abundance of the material, but it doesn't. Why? Because true satisfaction can only be found within the self by way of "virtue"; material wealth is just a cherry, and vice is just an empty cone.

The source of virtue, Life, Satisfaction, and Spirit is [God] who is defined as [Love] in 1 John. Love is the "source" of all virtue. Faith in God's Love can move mountains, one only need be mindful of what he/she embraces in life, and on what course he/she sets the heart. Love is the source of true satisfaction within the meachanism, I think.

We are programmed to recieve inwardly by way of virtue and vice. In the end, we choose our seat of soul, and what we cling to in life.

This view might seem like a kind of "ultimatum" to some, [It might very well be] but free will it is infact a "choice" driven system. Only, we are pre-programed to recieve by way of virtue and vice. Only, one "truly" satifies, while the other does not.

virtue >noun 1 behavior showing high moral standards. 2 a morally good or desirable quality. 3 a good or useful quality of a thing. (Love)

vice >noun 1 immoral or wicked behavior. 2 criminal activities involving prostitution, pornography, or drugs. 3 an immoral or wicked personal characteristic. 4 a weakness of character (Lust)

These are just my thoughts on free will....

Love,

path_of_one · 12-09-2006, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

namely man's total inabilty to come because no one loves God (we only love him after we're born agian and realized that he first loved us). This is what theologians call "Total Depravity." Or, part of it, I mean.

I disagree. I loved God from as far back as I can remember, and I have never had a time I did not seek after Him.

I've had plenty of times I've rebelled against His will, times I've messed up and sinned. But I was never without God, and I was always reminded instantly of my mess-up, which brought me to Him again in apology. And I don't apologize because I fear God, either. I apologize and try to do better because I love Him, and I want to give Him my all. But I have never felt that I was depraved in God's eyes. I am imperfect, but still beloved.

I think it is innate for people to seek after God. Some of the earliest memories I have, when I was perhaps two or so, were of looking at little picture books of Jesus' ministry and life, and I always felt it made sense that God loved me, and I loved God. It was a given, and wasn't difficult to come to God at all. I didn't need church, theology, or doctrine to experience God for myself and to love Him. I was too young, when I first experienced God, to be capable of the kind of reasoning you are describing that leads to conversion or being born again. I simply had a child's faith. As Jesus said, we are to have faith as little children. Little children do not sit and come up with elaborate ideas about how God operates, what the nature of humanity is, or what sin is. Little children just have faith that God loves them, they'll be the best person they can and love Him, and that is sufficient.

As for free will...
God's grace saves me through Christ, but I have ever been a person willing to be saved, and that is my own free will. Otherwise I would be merely a puppet.

Thomas · 12-09-2006, 04:25 PM

Hi Silas –

Can I speak with people of God (Christians) for a moment alone please?

OK. I'm Catholic.

Guys, I was wondering how you understand free will.

CCC311:
"Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil..."

CCC307:
"...God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbours. Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings. They then fully become "God's fellow workers" and co-workers for his kingdom."

Thomas

InLove · 12-09-2006, 04:47 PM

I have come to wonder if God chooses us all. After all, Scripture tells us that The Creator created us all, and died for all. Free will? Yes, we are free to choose His Love. (edited to add: or try to reject it)

If "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord," then that seems to include everyone. Exactly how that happens, well...we are not given every detail. I think there are good and holy reasons for that.

Exactly how God reveals himself to every person is not something I can say I know for sure. If I am to love my neighbor, and love my enemy, and above all love God, then I am not willing to project my measly understanding upon the holy mind and Spirit of God. "He" will reveal all things in His own time and in His own way. In the meantime, I will continue to glory and find comfort and peace in the things He allows me to comprehend through that beautiful Spirit, and I will not pass judgement on others if I can help it (and I believe He said He would aid me in that regard--He will not give me more than I can bear--and when I transgress in this area, He will show me my sin). I will work toward understanding His will, and by His choice and mine, I will find peace even when there appears to be none.

InPeace,
InLove

Faithfulservant · 12-09-2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Excuse me, I dont mean to come off harsh but you couldnt have learned that from reading scripture. Yes, God is Love! But He is three times Holy, which incidentally is His essence. ALL of God's attributes e.g., love, mercy, justice, wrath, flow from His Holiness. This Holy God hates sin with an extreme passion. Anyone in the Bible who was confronted with God all bowed their head in shame and pronounced a curse on themselves. By God's grace, I have come to understand to some degree, the hatred that God has for sins. The Bible makes it clear that sins are "exceedinly sinful" and absolutely abhorant in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, when I juxtapose my sins in light of God's exceeding holiness, I feel like the men in the Bible who cries out in shame and astonishment saying..."what is man that you should even be mindful of us."

Adam and Eve sinned only once and their sin was enough for God to pronouce a death curse on everyone. Moreover, He kicked them out of the Garden. I have sined way more than I could count. It is only because God is pleased to show mercy that I am alive and even trusting in Christ. In the Bible, God shows His soverignity by having mercy on whom he wills and punishing whom He wills. Read Romans 9. Since all are equally guilty, God chooses to save who He wills. And not because of something good in them - there is NOTHING good in man that is deserving of Jesus' sufferings, but rather it is all due to God's own choice to love and save whom He wills. This is the God of the Bible. "Fear Him and Keep His Commandments."

- God Bless!!

I was addressing this on another thread.. God hates sin and we are to hate what He hates so that makes hating what God hates a christian virtue.. lol Im waiting for flame on that.

I love that Jesus shared His righteousness with me.. To be righteous is to be IN Christ.. When God speaks of righteousness He is speaking of Jesus in us.. the annointing of us.. we are annointed by the blood of Jesus.. there are none righteous without Jesus and His blood.

bupanishad2007 · 12-09-2006, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I was addressing this on another thread.. God hates sin and we are to hate what He hates so that makes hating what God hates a christian virtue.. lol Im waiting for flame on that.

I love that Jesus shared His righteousness with me.. To be righteous is to be IN Christ.. When God speaks of righteousness He is speaking of Jesus in us.. the annointing of us.. we are annointed by the blood of Jesus.. there are none righteous without Jesus and His blood.

Yahweh ("Jehovah") hated the Canaanites (Phoenicians) and had the people of Israel exterminate them. Seems like a real bad precedent for Christians!

Faithfulservant · 12-09-2006, 07:28 PM

In my meditation in the word.. most recently God revealed something to me.. Im sharing it for those that will be edified by it..

I was studying the book of John and wow chapter 6 is amazing you can see the miracle he did with the 5000 and feeding them bread and fish and later in the chapter when he says he is the bread of life and all that eat of the bread will receive eternal life.. you see all but the 12 depart from Him because they could not comprehend what He was saying... they left Him.. The 12 stayed because they believed Him in faith.. I see a huge parallel in these days..

but that was only part of my study...

John 6:20 But He said to them, "It is I; do not be afraid." 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.

This is amazing to me.. Think about it... God created time and all its aspects.. all its dimensions.. the invisible and visible.. he obviiously states that he foreknew us throughout the bible..that we are predestined and chosen... yet he states that he desires ALL to come to Him.. what if when one decides in faith to believe Jesus to accept Him as Lord and Savior that it completely changes your path.. changes your destiny.. puts you in His will not your own.

This scripture speaks to my heart.. He said it is I.. they willingly received Him and immediately they were at their destination.. supernaturally..

He knocks at the door of your heart.. and says It is I.. you accept Him into your heart and your path changes immediately.. you are at your destination which is the kingdom of God..

I hope this edifies someone like it did me.. God is good.

Faithfulservant · 12-09-2006, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bupanishad2007

Yahweh ("Jehovah") hated the Canaanites (Phoenicians) and had the people of Israel exterminate them. Seems like a real bad precedent for Christians!

This is where you and I are different... you think you have the right to decide for yourself whether Gods decisions are just or not...

I believe Him in faith.. He is a just and righteous God and I would never dare question His authority or commands..

We are not here to please the people of this world we are here to worship the Almighty God.

bupanishad2007 · 12-09-2006, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

This is where you and I are different... you think you have the right to decide for yourself whether Gods decisions are just or not...

I believe Him in faith.. He is a just and righteous God and I would never dare question His authority or commands..

We are not here to please the people of this world we are here to worship the Almighty God.

How about Hosea 13:16? Is that a loving God to be "faithful and unquestioning" to?

Faithfulservant · 12-09-2006, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bupanishad2007

How about Hosea 13:16? Is that a loving God to be "faithful and unquestioning" to?

Yes

people really should fall on their faces and thank Jesus Christ... without Him thats what ALL of us deserve.

bupanishad2007 · 12-09-2006, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Yes

people really should fall on their faces and thank Jesus Christ... without Him thats what ALL of us deserve.

Seems a little against the grain of those who oppose abortion today, don't you think?

Faithfulservant · 12-09-2006, 08:34 PM

Like I said... people should really fall on their faces and worship Jesus..

We are saved through faith..

Abraham had faith and would have sacrificed Isaac because the Lord told him to.. thats why he was saved and a beloved of God.. because he didnt question.. he just believed..

Im not claiming to know Gods ways all I know is that He says hHs ways are higher than my ways.. His thoughts are higher than my thoughts and I know that I can never comprehend Him.. I just believe.

We are supposed to be ready in and out of season to explain the hope that lies within... and I am telling you is that believing in Jesus Christ literally is what saves US. If it wasnt for His precious blood on that cross... you and I deserve what you just read in Hosea.. because God HATES sin.. He is so holy and perfect that Sin cannot exist with Him.. we would die in His presence..without His grace we are doomed to die.. with His grace our sins are forgiven and forgotten.

Faithfulservant · 12-09-2006, 08:37 PM

in addition to that... Think about this.

We deserve punishment

Jesus who is God suffered that punishment once and for all

It pleased God to punish Jesus... thats how much He HATES sin..

Jesus suffered for ALL sins for ALL time.. because He is God it was enough...

bupanishad2007 · 12-09-2006, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

in addition to that... Think about this.

We deserve punishment

Jesus who is God suffered that punishment once and for all

It pleased God to punish Jesus... thats how much He HATES sin..

Jesus suffered for ALL sins for ALL time.. because He is God it was enough...

" I just believe."

That's your first mistake! So do the Fundamentalist Muslim terrorists of 9-11, and so many others in history who were ready to kill "for their God."

Faithfulservant · 12-09-2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bupanishad2007

" I just believe."

That's your first mistake! So do the Fundamentalist Muslim terrorists of 9-11, and so many others in history who were ready to kill "for their God."

no.. your mistake is purposefully disregarding Jesus Christ..

You are arguing without considering where I am coming from..

The OT was preparing Israel for the coming of the Messiah.. You are hating a God that wanted to save you by coming in flesh to die for you..

I see you are retired military.. how many people did you kill "for your country"?

whats the difference? Your argument is flawed.