legal issues

[lunamoth]

Hi All,

I very much agree in principle with Littlemissattitude that no one should be forced to do go to church or believe something against their will. I certainly know enough horror stories, as she related, about people who left the church because of a coercive atmosphere and too much pressure that had nothing to do with God, in my estimate.

But, having said that, I too am glad that my mother took me to church when I was little and laid that foundation for me, and most important continued long after I left home to keep modeling that God-centered life in her own humble and quiet way. When I stopped going to church, and later when I became a Baha'i, there were no scenes or rending of garments. There was no pressure to do things "the way I had been taught." In fact it seemed very much like I was expected to now work things out for myself, go my own way.

I usually did not like going to church when I was little, and especially in those tween and teen years. I was either bored or would rather have slept in or stayed home to do whatever I wanted. But now, looking back, I value it. I'm not sure that comparing it to the dentist is a good comparison, but perhaps more like going to school, which I also probably would have avoided quite a lot if given free choice on the matter.

And then, as someone else above pointed out, there is the practical consideration of what would one do with the kids if they did not go to church! I go to church and take my girls with me. One goes to the nursery and comes up for communion and the end of the service sometimes. She loves it. The other goes to the children's chapel, then into the "big church" for communion and the rest, then Sunday school. She complains at little at times (as she does about practically everything ), but she also has friends and I know that she also has fun. She, so far, likes learning about God and Christ and the traditions of our chruch. They are only 2 and five years old. When they are fifteen I hope that they continue to find meaning in church, but if not they will be old enough then to make their own choices. Until then I have a responsibility as a parent to raise them with a foundation of values and beliefs that are the center for our family, and hopefully will carry them into their own happy families when the time comes.

The more important things than going to church are how we lead lives of example for our children at home, how we center our lives as shown by our actions and our love, not by our words or what we say we believe. In addition to how we adhere to our traditions it is very important to not belittle or tear down other people's beliefs. Showing repsect for all religions and cultures at home is so important for raising kids who will have a chance at peace.

If they come home some day and tell me they want to be a Muslim or a Buddhist or a Baha'i, I'll say Great! Because with a foundation in Love and God and the Spirit I trust that they will find their way no matter how their own path winds.

More words than I meant to type. Oh well. There it is.

peace,
lunamoth

[arthra]

In my family I was expected to be active in the Church I grew up in... My grandfather had a role in this.. and it did provide a spiritual life for awhile but as i got older I had the intention to prove more to myself what was best for me and so began a long odyssey of experimenting and searching..

In my mid-twenties I became a Baha'i and later married another Baha'i. As the children grew older I would sometimes tell them some of the Bible stories I recalled from my childhood and would explain the teachings of Jesus about returning good for evil, etc.

I think it's very important for the parent to pass on the core values and spiritual life to their children.

I also made it my business to see that my children were exposed to as many religions in our area as possible. So we visited churches, temples, mosques and synagogue.

In our Faith the child at fifteen years of age or so decides whether they want to be a Baha'i through what's called their own indendent investigation. If they decide then they continue as Baha'is, if not they don't.

- Art

[I, Brian]

When I was in the scouts, we were supposed to go to the nearby church for Sunday service and rest our flag at the end of it. Many of us found it a dry and boring experience, and it properly didn't do much to encourage us to become Christians.

Yesterday we went to Dunblane Cathedral. It's a relatively small and plain cathedral in comparison to others I've been to. It was lovingly restored from a ruin just over a 100 years ago. It also houses a very simple stone. The stone commemorates the lives of 14 children, shot dead in the village nursery by a gunman in 1996.

I took the family to the cathedral, and we went around, explored, talk about the stone, and played in the ornate wooden benches for the choir. Then we went out for a walk by the small wooded river that runs underneath the cathedral.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by littlemissattitude

Certainly, you don't think we should go back to the bad old days, such as in some of the American colonies before independence, when the civil authorities enforced chruch attendance. I also don't believe that you have to be "in church" in order to know about and worship God.

Why get the civil authorities involved in church attendance at all? By taking the authority away from the parents, the civil authorities are taking the authority for themselves. Wouldn't that constitute a violation of the separation of Church and State?

[littlemissattitude]

I did not say that the civil authorities should get involved in church attendance. I was merely stating the historical fact that in some of the American colonies before the American Revolution (that was before the Bill of Rights and separation of church and state), the civil authorities did in fact enforce church attendance. I don't think that is a good idea, any more than I think it is a good idea for parents to force their children to take part in something like a particular religion, which essentially an act of individual conscience.

Again, I repeat, I think it is a wonderful thing for parents to explain what they believe to their children, and to expose them to various spiritual practices and knowledge. I don't think it is a good thing to force them to participate in a particular kind of practice that they do not believe in and so do not want to participate in.

Now, I take the point that when children are small, if the parent or parents attend church or synagogue or mosque, it is inevitable that the children accompany them. That is fine. But I have a huge problem with parents - and I know people who have gone through this - who force their older children to worship in the same way the parents do, with punishments attached if they do not do so. For example, they have privileges taken away or are not allowed to do things with their friends if they do not attend and participate in the parents' worship. Or they will berate the the older child and threaten them with things like eternal damnation if they do not conform to the parents' beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, such actions are just wrong. You can't force someone to believe something that they don't believe. Making them go through the motions anyway is a violation, I believe, of any individual's basic human rights.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by arthra

In my family I was expected to be active in the Church I grew up in... My grandfather had a role in this.. and it did provide a spiritual life for awhile but as i got older I had the intention to prove more to myself what was best for me and so began a long odyssey of experimenting and searching..



- Art

i know a couple of children who were taken to church by the grandparents because the parents did not want to go. it was interesting to see how the table turned because there was a regret from the parents later for offering no spiritual guidance at all.
one young person in our church who is now 21, wishes his parents would come to church with him & would have liked to have grown up going to church as a family.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Sorry God.. that people think you are a form of propoganda and that people think dentists are more important than you are. I agree with Bandit.. thanks mom for making sure my soul doesnt have cavities.

LOL
i can relate but i dont expect everyone to be able to. i was forced to brush my teeth, even when i did not want to!
so i was getting my spiritual teeth brushed when mom gave me that horrible sunday morning spit bath & raked the comb through my hair, popped a zit on my face & plopped a few nickles & dimes in my hand for the offering, then sent me to the childrens choir for practice before sunday school.

there were certainly times i would have prefered to stay home & watch cartoons.
i went pretty willingly. now my little brothers was another issue. they gave mom a real hard time, but they knew it was time to get out of bed & get ready for church when dad came into the room.

i did not really get the chance to take my kid to church, because i messed up later on in life, but i think between me & his mom, we instilled enough in him, to make the right choices in time.

[arthra]

Sometimes what i find is that the religious Grandparent has repelled their own offspring from religion... by being too insistent or domineering in enforcing it.

So the immediate children rebel and leave their church...

The grandchildren come along and may be religious in response to the parents lack of religion.

Children have a special radar which can tell them what their parents most dislike or what will upset them most.

Being a parent can be very difficult because at a certain age you sense that your children like yourself will probably rebel as part of their character formation...

After the rebellion stage you hope they will find a more stable mature pattern but they have to do that by themselves.

- Art

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by arthra

Sometimes what i find is that the religious Grandparent has repelled their own offspring from religion... by being too insistent or domineering in enforcing it.

So the immediate children rebel and leave their church...

The grandchildren come along and may be religious in response to the parents lack of religion.

Children have a special radar which can tell them what their parents most dislike or what will upset them most.

Being a parent can be very difficult because at a certain age you sense that your children like yourself will probably rebel as part of their character formation...

After the rebellion stage you hope they will find a more stable mature pattern but they have to do that by themselves.

- Art

sometimes. it is never the same. you could have 4 generations that stay in church. everyone makes there own choices. i dont think kids would go to church just to upset there parents because they dont go. (as a rule)

it would be more like not taking out the garbage & being disrespectful. kids that like to argue & pout a lot do that because they know some parents will give in & feed them ice cream for being a brat at the store. LOL

but i will say this, if there is not much discipline & teaching going on by the time they reach about 6 or 7, it is going to be difficult to get them on track. fortunately not all kids are a problem child.