Lazarus and the rich man

[Azure24]

Do you know of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man? What is your understanding of it? As many do not know and take most of it literally...

[pattimax]

Scipture says nothing about post mortem conversions. God's offer of salvation doesn't appear to extend beyond death.

Is that literal? Is that what you were asking? How do you see it?

[mee]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Do you know of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man? What is your understanding of it? As many do not know and take most of it literally...

Yes indeed i do

What does the parable mean? The "rich man" represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by mee

...The "rich man" represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

Close...

"...he dressed in purple and fine linen (cambric) (Luke 16:19)

Why should we care what color or what fabric of clothing he wore? Fine clothing are not a sin. What does that have to do with a man’s character, virtue, or deeds?

Though the Rich man may, indeed, be suffering discomfort or pain, it is not from fire burning his flesh, but rather from being tested and proved through chastisement.

It is an interesting fact of Scripture that except for Paul "punishing" the church, there is only ONE SCRIPTURE in the whole new testament that uses the word "punishment." All others use the word "chastisement" which always carries the connotation of correction and bringing things back to what is right again. Chastisement by it’s very definition CANNOT be eternal. There is always a purpose and goal in mind with the use of the word chastise.

"And he shouting, said..."

Impossible. Proof: Psalm 31:17--"...let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [Heb. SHEOL]. There it is! There is no talking and no shouting in sheol. If anyone can literally "shout" in hades or sheol they make God a liar.

Anyway like I said why was he (Rich man) dressed in purple?

and

What makes you think it was referring to the Pharisees (Rich man) and common jews (Lazarus)?

[mee]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Anyway like I said why was he (Rich man) dressed in purple?

and

What makes you think it was referring to the Pharisees (Rich man) and common jews (Lazarus)?

Because of its costliness, this color (purple)often was associated with or symbolized riches, honor, and royal majesty.


and Jesus was talking to his diciples about how we cannot slave for riches and God . but as you mentioned, it is not wrong to be rich we could just be born into a rich family , but it is the slaving after riches that is wrong ,we need to slave for God instead .

and the money loving ones dressed in purple ,were listening in and mocking



The "purple and linen" in which the rich man was decked out were comparable to garb worn only by princes, nobles, and priests. (Es 8:15; Ge 41:42; Ex 28:4, 5) They were very costly.

[mee]

when it comes to spiritual priviledges ,those who thought they had them will nolonger have them. and those who were looked down on , would have the priviledges instead . change of circumstances it seems .

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Azure24

It is an interesting fact of Scripture that except for Paul "punishing" the church, there is only ONE SCRIPTURE in the whole new testament that uses the word "punishment."

It is interesting that your fact does not mention who translated your version of scripture.

Originally Posted by Azure24

Chastisement by it’s very definition CANNOT be eternal. There is always a purpose and goal in mind with the use of the word chastise.

There is a will that can forever deny that goal. Does that not count as eternal?

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

It is interesting that your fact does not mention who translated your version of scripture.

No. I was talking about in it's original text (of the scriptures). Look it up on the internet if you want...

Anyway there is only one man who Scripturally fits all the descriptions of the "rich man" in this parable. Only one person who "personifies" all of the symbols and identifying clues given of this rich man. And that man is Judah.
But not just Judah as an historical individual, but collectively. All Israel under the headship of Judah, the Jews. And the Jews were "rich."

The Rich man didn’t just dress in "Purple," but "Purple and Cambric." He wore both. Cambric or Fine Linen is symbolic of the clothing that the priests wore (Ex. 28:5, 25:4). And of the interior decorations of the Tabernacle itself (Ex. 26:1).

Lazarus represents Eliezer (Abraham's faithful steward). Eliezer was so faithful a steward to Abraham that he was planning to make him his heir and give Eliezer all his possessions and inheritance. Eliezer would have been wealthy. He would have inherited the "promised land." He would have received the "oracles of God" Ah, but no, God had different plans. Abraham would have a son Isaac who would continue the Abrahamic line.

As a Gentile, all Eliezer could ever hope for were the spiritual "crumbs" that fell from the Rich man’s table. Though through faith God works many miracles.

It is the Gentiles that God is primarily dealing with today! In the scriptures Paul says there is to be only a "remnant" of Jews. His calling was to the nations. However, Paul knew that God was still calling a "few" of the Jews. "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh [Jews], and might save some of them" (Rom. 11:14).

For nearly two thousand years now God is calling primarily the Gentiles..

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Azure24

No. I was talking about in it's original text (of the scriptures). Look it up on the internet if you want...

The original... well, that would be with God and the men who wrote it. Should I not ask God and the men who wrote it, instead of the internet? Could you point me in your direction though... what version of text are you reading from?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your interest in Lazarus and the rich man has something to do with the divide then between them after life, am I correct? There is a decision for the rich person to make here and now, and that decision requires will. Do you trust in the riches, or do you trust in the soul... the free will... of even the most poor, who might be given much more than you in another life?

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

The original... well, that would be with God and the men who wrote it.

Ok, it was written in Greek originally. and ask God? Why? Just try to look for older versions of the Bible.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Do you trust in the riches, or do you trust in the soul... the free will... of even the most poor, who might be given much more than you in another life?

Are you taking this parable literally (oh dear)? Maybe I should educate you...

I am going to some length to demonstrate the absolute absurdity of teaching this parable of Lazarus or any other parable as a literal and historical event.

If taken literally, this parable consists of statements that are illogical, unscriptural, contradictory, and impossible. But, when we understand the symbolism of this parable, it opens up our understanding to God’s dealing with all peoples on earth! We must know the real identity of these two individuals before we can know that their treatment is a just treatment based on their lives and based on God’s grace.

Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and multitudes in parables:

"And He begins to speak to them in parables." (Mk.. 12:1).

Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables ONLY:

"All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them..." (Mat. 13:34).

According to the popular teaching of this parable, the Rich man is in an eternal Hell of torture and Lazarus is in eternal Heavenly bliss. Well let’s be sure then to pay special attention to those traits of character that have separated these two individuals into two entirely different realms.

"Now a certain man was rich..."

Many reading these words immediately conclude that being rich must be a sin. This is the one outstanding feature of this man--he is RICH. Is that a sin? Abraham, just talking distance away here, was very rich (Gen. 13:2). Isaac was rich, Jacob was rich, Joseph was rich, David (a man after God’s own heart) was rich. Job was the richest man in all the East (Job. 1:3). And it was God Who blessed them, that’s why they were rich. Being rich is no character flaw or sin.

Christ said that it is difficult for a rich man to inherit the Kingdom, for example, and that certainly is true. But it is not the fact of being rich that makes this so, but rather the power that wealth has over the soul to keep one from pursuing spiritual things. Some people are "rich" and are right with God. Other people are "rich" and are not right with God. But the bottom line is how God has constituted the person himself that makes the difference, not the fact that he is wealthy.

Besides, if Lazarus is a godly man why is he begging food? Read Psa. 37:25:

"...Yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, NOR HIS SEED BEGGING BREAD"!

There is absolutely nothing in the discription of Lazarus that would indicate he was a godly man. But when we identify him, there is much to show that he was a godly man, and that his poverty and sickness was not that of a literally diseased beggar in the street.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Close...

It is an interesting fact of Scripture that except for Paul "punishing" the church, there is only ONE SCRIPTURE in the whole new testament that uses the word "punishment." All others use the word "chastisement" which always carries the connotation of correction and bringing things back to what is right again. Chastisement by it’s very definition CANNOT be eternal. There is always a purpose and goal in mind with the use of the word chastise.

Kind of makes you want to repent before the fact, huh?

According to the Lord, hindsight will not be 20/20.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Besides, if Lazarus is a godly man why is he begging food? Read Psa. 37:25:

because he is looking to the so called spiritual leaders for spiritual comfort , this parable that Jesus is talking to them about is about spiritual riches and blessings . and the ones who think they have them are not blessed at all ,because the blessings will change position. and the so called leaders will be tormented , not in a litral hellfire way though.

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Read Psa. 37:25:

"...Yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, NOR HIS SEED BEGGING BREAD"!

Isaac Asimov commented on this passage: "The author must not have been very observant."

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Azure24

and ask God? Why?

Matthew 4:4

Originally Posted by Azure24

"...Yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, NOR HIS SEED BEGGING BREAD"!

Matthew 6:11

Originally Posted by Azure24

But when we identify him, there is much to show that he was a godly man, and that his poverty and sickness was not that of a literally diseased beggar in the street.

Luke 16:25

I'm a little lost in your words Azure. What would you do when a literally diseased beggar in the street asks you for help?

[Azure24]

The Greek "Lazarus" is from Lazaros [Heb. HELPLESS].

But in Hebrew "Lazarus" is Elazar or "Eliezer" from el [God] and azar [HELP]!

Lazarus [Eliezer] was: "...cast at his [Rich man’s] gate [portal]..."

The Rich man, regardless of his character or lack thereof, was obviously blessed of God:

"The Lord shall make thee plenteous in goods..." (Deut. 28:11).

And "...bless all the work of thine hand" (Ver 12).

As he sewed, so he reaped (Gal. 6:7, II Cor. 9:6-7).

He got "good things in life" and the Scripture plainly tells us that

"Every GOOD gift is from above..." (Jas. 1:17).

Lazarus was obviously cursed of God:

"...thou shalt. not prosper" (Deut. 28:16).

The "botch and scab" (Ver. 27 & 29).

It was the "Gentiles" who were not allowed into the Royal and Priestly House of Judah. They could go no further than "The court of the Gentiles." Any blessings they received had to come to them from inside where they were never allowed to go! Though designated as "proselytes," they were, nonetheless, like "dogs" who only got the "crumbs" or scraps! Hence we find Lazarus cast "at the gate."

Lazarus doesn’t represent materialistically poor Jews, but spiritually poor Gentiles. That’s the whole point here in the parable. Judah was rich and knew it! They were like the Laodiceans who said:

"I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (Rev. 3:17).


"...Father Abraham, be merciful to me, and send Lazarus that he should be dipping the tip of his finger in water..."

In figurative and symbolic language the Rich man asks for a drop of water on the tip of Lazarus’ finger. How appropriate! Who was it that refused to help the "poor" with so much as their little finger?

"For they [Judah] bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers" (Mat. 23:4).


"...and spake unto Rehoboam [King of Judah], saying, ... make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee. But he forsook the counsel of the old men ... My little finger shall be thicker than my father’s loins ... my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions" (I Kg. 12:7:11).


Now Judah begs the assistance of a finger from a poor man! And not just a poor man, but a poor Gentile! It was custom for pious Jews to cut a section of their garment off if it were so much as touched by the finger of a Gentile. Now the rich and lofty personification of God’s chosen people begs for the assistance of a Gentile FINGER.

We represent the Gentiles...

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I'm a little lost in your words Azure. What would you do when a literally diseased beggar in the street asks you for help?

But we're not talking literal are we!

Gal. 6:7, II Cor. 9:6-7. It is God Who makes both rich and poor (I Sam. 2:7).