Law and Sanctions

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by PrimaVera

Luna (Can I call you Laurie?)

Please do!

Laurie

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Frankly, it seems to me that Baha'is present it both or either way, depending upon the point they wish to make: 1) the Faith is just a religion with no aims of being a government aside from those who freely join vs. 2) the BAO is the model for how the best way to govern the whole world, eventually everyone will realize this and submit to its authority or some version of its system.

It is not so much "either way". It is that we are early in the process, and as yet the process does not allow Baha`i Law to be societal law. And now is not the time for the House to codify the law into statutes, because the statutes of today may not be appropriate for 100 years from now.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

If it is the Kingdom of God, it is for the governance of the whole world. Not just a religion. As others have pointed out, you don't separate state governance from religion from whatever other part of life in the Kingdom of God. It is the whole enchilada.

Indeed. BUt the enchiladal has just been rolled, and several more will have to go into the pan before the lot can be baked. So it is really the constituent pieces of the enchilada still in different bowls and the cook has not set the table as yet.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I don't know what that future AO would look like, but I can look at how the Faith operates in this day and make judgements about it. I see not only the potential for oppression, but the seeds of it in sanctions on gay Baha'is


I know, Scott. I have no doubts that the motives of you, all the Baha'is here, and all of the Institution of the Faith are anything but purepure motives and doing the best that you can. (note--it's getting late for me, i'm trying to say i think you rmotives are pure)

But is the UHJ infallible? They are just men, just men, and just men, if you get my meanings.



I loved being a Baha'i.

peace,
lunamoth

Well, the men, each and individual are not. The men convened together as the Universal House of Justice are. If we cannot believe Baha`u'llah for that, we can't believe Him for anything.

We'll talk tomorrow. I hope tomorrow is less hectic for you and peace reigns for at least a little bit.

Regards,
Scott

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by PrimaVera

Before this afternoon, I was pretty sure I sucked at curling. Now, I have absolutely no doubt.

I suck at curling too!

One of the first messages I posted on CR spoke of the differences between plane and spherical geometry. We don't debate the relative merits of plane or spherical geometry.

yeah, I didn't understand a word of it.

Laurie

[smkolins]

While the thread has gone on to cover other ideas, I don't think this part has been dwelt on enough.

Originally Posted by sara[h]ng

Thank you for your answers, they made a lot of sense, but I have a further question.

I've always heard that the fact, that women cannot serve in that highest Baha'i 'office' (I apologize that I can't think of the words,) is a bit of a test regarding the individual's will (in this case, maybe a feminist's) vs. God's. If you look throughout history, isn't it the case that while there is generally a bit more equality to women in the major religions, it is still a male dominated world. I could be wrong, I can't really think of any examples other than specifics in Islam. But my point is, if you look at this particular thing, which doesn't really make sense to us, and accept it because it is God's will and because the past religions have shown similar ideas - and we know that there should be equality, both from common sense and from other Baha'i thoughts on the topic - couldn't this be an example that goes against the idea of looking for backing for arguable laws in the other religions?

- Sarah

It could. The matter of the position of women and men is something perhaps we are too close to both in ourselves and in our emediate past as well as of the longer history. A history replete with error, mixed with truth, layered and pushed around so one became the other. In more recent times equality seemed to mean that women could act as pushy and mean as men were perhaps by training and inclination. In the more distant past I recall comments from Paul about how women should behave in Church, which I think some take too far and incompatible with Paul himself later commending a woman to be "in charge". In the case of the Baha'i Faith, in some respects, I think it is a continuation of the changes brought forward from earlier religions:

"The world in the past has been ruled by force, and man has dominated over woman by reason of his more forceful and aggressive qualities both of body and mind. But the balance is already shifting; force is losing its dominance, and mental alertness, intuition, and the spiritual qualities of love and service, in which woman is strong, are gaining ascendancy. Hence the new age will be an age less masculine and more permeated with the feminine ideals, or, to speak more exactly, will be an age in which the masculine and feminine elements of civilization will be more evenly balanced."

Notice these are not finished changes... "already shifting", "losing", "gaining", "will be".... Our achievement of these goals is not done, nor where things were at - consider the proportion of women participating on National Assemblies.

The main website seems to be having problems for the moment but there exists an independent archiving system on the internet - Approximate Percent of Women serving on National Spiritual Assemblies (it's not a picture so you'll have to go look at the table, I tried to frame the data here but couldn't make it very clean.)

On first glance it's easy to see that through secret ballot, with no systmatic scheme to simply put women in positions of authority, women are being elected in numbers far beyond that of any of the governments of any of the regions. And even these few years there is more upticking than downticking.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Indeed. BUt the enchiladal has just been rolled, and several more will have to go into the pan before the lot can be baked. So it is really the constituent pieces of the enchilada still in different bowls and the cook has not set the table as yet.

And what, exactly, are the processes in place for making any changes to the way the Administrative Order operates?

It never played in my decision making process, but I later learned online about the Dialogue crackdown.

Well, the men, each and individual are not. The men convened together as the Universal House of Justice are.

Yes, it is an article of faith. I respect that.

If we cannot believe Baha`u'llah for that, we can't believe Him for anything.

Yup.

We'll talk tomorrow. I hope tomorrow is less hectic for you and peace reigns for at least a little bit.

Regards,
Scott

Good night.

Laurie

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Dear Scott,

Yes, those passages from Paul are amazing, and even though I don't usually read the KJV, they are even more majestic and beautiful in that translation.

You've established that essentially there is no difference between these Christian teachings and the Baha'i teachings.

My reading of Paul is that we are no longer under the penalty of law, any law. No longer under penalty, but under the Spirit which is Love, love God and love each other. It does not make sense to me Christ freed us from bondage to law and then would return to bring a whole new bunch of very detailed (down to the minutia in some cases) laws.

Do I think those laws no longer serve a purpose? Of course they do! They are guidelines for conduct that will bring us true joy. Laws mean we are still babies. I think it is interesting that Baha'ullah only revealed the Aqdas at the end of His life, and (Kitab-i-Hearsay) that it was only becasue the friends insisted. Reminds me of the Israelites asking for a King. Do I believe in keeping people safe from others who would prey upon the innocent and do harm? Of course! But, once you get the idea of Love, really get it, have the Spirit within, the law is irrelevant.

The fruits of the Spirit flow out--you don't cram them in by law. Observance of the law then is your Christ nature, which is your true nature.

peace,
lunamoth

Here's from the Arabic Hidden Words:
"3. O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
4. O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
5. O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
6. O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion."
7. O SON OF MAN!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.
8. O SON OF SPIRIT!
There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me; for it behooveth thee to glory in My name, not in thine own; to put thy trust in Me and not in thyself, since I desire to be loved alone and above all that is.
9. O SON OF BEING!
My love is My stronghold; he that entereth therein is safe and secure, and he that turneth away shall surely stray and perish.
10. O SON OF UTTERANCE! Thou art My stronghold; enter therein that thou mayest abide in safety. My love is in thee, know it, that thou mayest find Me near unto thee.
11. O SON OF BEING!
Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Number two of course is the one about justice.


Just for fun, I ran the word "love" and "justice" through the word search in "Ocean":
("love" 8894 sentences in 523 documents)
(Justice 11,800 in 523 documents)
Subtracting all the signatures (Universal house of Justice 350)
References to the Houses of Justice ( 1800)
puts the totals pretty even. Just a quirk of trivia rooted out while waiting for my wife to finish at the hospital.

Regards,
Scott

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

And what, exactly, are the processes in place for making any changes to the way the Administrative Order operates?

Organically. An ever fuller transformation of character and norms. Not too long ago there was a development in decentralizing some of the processes of institutions by making regional Baha'i councils around the world, and at a local level with clusters.

:-)

[smkolins]

It is of some passing interest to me that my first post in CR was when it was less than a year old, and was in a thread about "Holy Spirit: feminine form?". An interesting skimming of history.

[PrimaVera]

OK. The kids are fed, and Beth is blissfully ensconced in a chemically altered world (muscle relaxants). Back to Hatcher, process, law and sanctions.

We cannot grow spiritually in a social vacuum. Salvation, then, is something we do in a social context. In the context of our individual salvation, sanctions are meaningless. It's the social context where sanctions become relevant. If we only look at the role the law plays with respect to individual salvation, we completely miss the role that the law plays in creating a social milieu that conduces to salvation in any given day and age.

In particular, it's the social dimension that answers the question, why these particular laws? After all, if the only role that the law plays is to provide a means by which we can know that we're engaged in the process of salvation, then any set of laws will do.

In the thread on Healing Physician in the comparative studies forum, I pointed to the idea that "sex sells." The social effects of advertising that uses sexually suggestive images are rather well documented. Now, firms don't pay for that advertising because it doesn't work. John Kenneth Galbraith pointed that out. If advertising didn't add to the firm's bottom line, then they wouldn't spend money on it. Why does sexually suggestive advertising work? Because we don't uphold a sufficiently high standard of chastity.

For the same reason that sanctions in civil law protect society, sanctions in religious law protect the social dimension of the law itself. It's worth noting, in this context, the various quotes that have already been posted about the process that spiritual assemblies are supposed to use when applying Baha'i law. I won't requote them here, but I will point out that the point where sanctions are applied is only after every attempt has been made to assist the individual to become compliant with the law. In other words, the point where sanctions are applied is the point where the individual has willfully disengaged from the process of salvation.

That is, at least, my own understanding of why sanctions exist on the context of religious law. As for why specific sanctions for specific violations of law, I see a gray area there. I don't think we fully grasp the social dimension of the law, or, at least, I don't find myself capable of fully grasping that dimension.

There is yet another reason for having sanctions. One thing that Manifestations of God do in their respective Revelations is to challenge conventional wisdom; to get us to question the validity of the assumptions we've acquired over the years and to force us to rethink what we understand about the principles They promulgate. But, I think this subject ought to be the point of a different thread. In fact, it's the basic point that Bahiyyih Nakhjavani makes in her book, Asking Questions: A Challenge to Fundamentalism.

Further readings on John Hatcher's ideas can be found in The Law of Love Enshrined, and Close Connections: The Bridge Between Spiritual and Physical Reality.

[PrimaVera]

Dear Laurie,

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Are you saying that you might not fully support a judgement made by the UHJ? When they sit in judgement, they represent every Baha'i. Do you feel no responsibility for the actions of the Institutions of the Administrative Order?

Quick answers are, no, I don't agree and no. No institution answers to me. They answer to God.

If a gay Baha'i could grow up knowing the law, but not in fear of losing her community and perhaps family, there would be a lot more room for the Holy Spirit to work.

Couldn't one say the same thing about any aspect of our physical nature that impedes our spiritual growth and development?

My apologies for breaking up you one paragraph below, but I think each of the sentences represents a separate thought worthy of its own discussion. I'm not trying to play tit-for-tat.

So, it has been in being empathetic to the plight of the gay Baha'i that I first started to question the validity of imposing sanctions. (Not compassionate)

Do you think it's not compassionate, because you think being gay is not a choice?

Further reasoning drew me to conclude that no sanction that separates a Baha'i from Feast/Funds/Voting is going to help heal whatever the problem is (not rational).

I think we're already discussing this in the other thread in this discussion, no?

And the inherant problems of lack of transparency in BAO proceedings, lack of accountability, lack of checks and balances and legal representation when in fact you are dealing with laws, lead me conclude that it is not just.

This gets dicey. The specific issues you mention stem from a particular theory of justice that's ensconsed in some western democracies. I emphasize the word "some," because some of these concepts don't exist in all of them.

The lack of transparency in proceedings is a two-edged sword. There's a reason that juvenile proceedings are closed-door proceedings even in the United States.

I don't think the Baha'i Administrative Order lacks accountability or checks and balances. The accountability and checks and balances differ from what we see in the United States, but I think the Baha'i system operates under a different theory of justice--one primary difference being the process by which facts are ascertained. You can take a look at Germany's legal system for an alternative to our adversarial system.

When we start getting down to particulars, justice is a very complex issue, and, when an issue is as complex as this one is, I tend to not reach any hard and fast conclusions. "I don't know," is a phrase I'm often led to utter.

I mentioned early on in this thread that I think we're really talking about the fundamental religious problem: how do we know what God's will is? Not an easy question to answer.

Time for me to start apologizing, I guess. Did I mention I've been under a lot of stress lately?

Apology accepted, and, yes, you did mention the stress. I believe I've already said that you're on my prayer list.

[PrimaVera]

Dear Laurie,

Regarding my discussion of geometry:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

yeah, I didn't understand a word of it.

Dang, and I thought I'd been so careful to explain it.

I suppose any globes you have are packed up at the moment, but, when you get your hands on one, grab yourself some string, and start "drawing lines" on the glob by stretching the string between two points on the globe. Make triangles. Look at the way the strings intersect with lines of longitute (the lines that go through the two poles). You'll be amazed at how different triangles look and behave on the surface of a sphere from they way you learned about them in grade school.

The story of Geometry is really very fascinating. You can find a good synopsis, along with several useful links, here.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Here's from the Arabic Hidden Words:
"3. O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
4. O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
5. O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
6. O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion."
7. O SON OF MAN!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.
8. O SON OF SPIRIT!
There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me; for it behooveth thee to glory in My name, not in thine own; to put thy trust in Me and not in thyself, since I desire to be loved alone and above all that is.
9. O SON OF BEING!
My love is My stronghold; he that entereth therein is safe and secure, and he that turneth away shall surely stray and perish.
10. O SON OF UTTERANCE! Thou art My stronghold; enter therein that thou mayest abide in safety. My love is in thee, know it, that thou mayest find Me near unto thee.
11. O SON OF BEING!
Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Number two of course is the one about justice.


Just for fun, I ran the word "love" and "justice" through the word search in "Ocean":
("love" 8894 sentences in 523 documents)
(Justice 11,800 in 523 documents)
Subtracting all the signatures (Universal house of Justice 350)
References to the Houses of Justice ( 1800)
puts the totals pretty even. Just a quirk of trivia rooted out while waiting for my wife to finish at the hospital.

Regards,
Scott

Yes Scott. Those are all beautiful Hidden Words. Thank you.

Laurie

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by smkolins

Organically. An ever fuller transformation of character and norms. Not too long ago there was a development in decentralizing some of the processes of institutions by making regional Baha'i councils around the world, and at a local level with clusters.

:-)

In other words, you have faith that the system will work. I respect that. But it is not to be confused with be rational.

peace,
lunamoth

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by smkolins

It is of some passing interest to me that my first post in CR was when it was less than a year old, and was in a thread about "Holy Spirit: feminine form?". An interesting skimming of history.

I remember that thread, and I know you've been here a long time too, brother.

Where is barefootgal? I miss her.

Laurie

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by PrimaVera

We cannot grow spiritually in a social vacuum. Salvation, then, is something we do in a social context. In the context of our individual salvation, sanctions are meaningless. It's the social context where sanctions become relevant. If we only look at the role the law plays with respect to individual salvation, we completely miss the role that the law plays in creating a social milieu that conduces to salvation in any given day and age.

I can agree with laws that protect the social milieux. I can't agree with laws that I find unjust. I've explained a few times now in various places why I think this law is unjust and goes against our command to Love.

In particular, it's the social dimension that answers the question, why these particular laws? After all, if the only role that the law plays is to provide a means by which we can know that we're engaged in the process of salvation, then any set of laws will do.

In the thread on Healing Physician in the comparative studies forum, I pointed to the idea that "sex sells." The social effects of advertising that uses sexually suggestive images are rather well documented. Now, firms don't pay for that advertising because it doesn't work. John Kenneth Galbraith pointed that out. If advertising didn't add to the firm's bottom line, then they wouldn't spend money on it. Why does sexually suggestive advertising work? Because we don't uphold a sufficiently high standard of chastity.

Sorry, I'm not getting your point here. Seems you are talking about the relative nature of laws. You believe that Baha'u'llah has given a set of permanent laws that are inflexible for the next 850 plus years. I say that denies the work of the Holy Spirit. Do I think my own personal opinion on matters reflects God's will and the work of the Spirit? No! It comes through loving consultation within a communinty. Sound familiar?

For the same reason that sanctions in civil law protect society, sanctions in religious law protect the social dimension of the law itself. It's worth noting, in this context, the various quotes that have already been posted about the process that spiritual assemblies are supposed to use when applying Baha'i law. I won't requote them here, but I will point out that the point where sanctions are applied is only after every attempt has been made to assist the individual to become compliant with the law. In other words, the point where sanctions are applied is the point where the individual has willfully disengaged from the process of salvation.

And I ask again, what is achieved by imposing those sanctions at this end of the rope point?

There is yet another reason for having sanctions. One thing that Manifestations of God do in their respective Revelations is to challenge conventional wisdom; to get us to question the validity of the assumptions we've acquired over the years and to force us to rethink what we understand about the principles They promulgate.

I think it is even more radical than just challenging conventional wisdom. Yes, we do need to question the vailidity of the assumptions.

But, I think this subject ought to be the point of a different thread.

Please no! Not another thread! I can't keep up as it is.

I'll return to your other post later.

peace,
lunamoth