Kuffar or Infidels?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Strange you should say that actually. No I don't; but they have to me.

s.

That's perfectly normal, they have an allergy to humans in general, hence all the spitting.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

That's perfectly normal, they have an allergy to humans in general, hence all the spitting.

Excuse me, are you saying I'm normal?

s.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Excuse me, are you saying I'm normal?

s.

No, no, no, no, no. I was saying that camels are normal. Heaven forbid I should insult you in such a manner.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

No, no, no, no, no. I was saying that camels are normal. Heaven forbid I should insult you in such a manner.

Glad we've cleared that up.

s.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by KarimK

The fact that it prevents suicide bombings does not justify it.

could we not agree that it justifies the principle if not the actual practice, or is that just splitting hairs? i mean, as far as i'm concerned saving life overrides other considerations, but if the wall is used (as it demonstrably has been) to further political goals and create "facts on the ground" then the israelis are creating a stick for their own back later on - but then again, i'd say that's a specialty of almost everyone in the middle east.

The Palestinian people are living in a cage. Literally, it's an open-sky prison.

ok, but don't they also have a border with jordan? the gazans have a sea coast and a border with egypt as well. again, i'm not applauding the policy or the practice but surely even if the israeli border is closed, it doesn't necessarily follow that everywhere is closed, or am i being stupid and do the israelis control the jordanian border - i think they probably do.

I'll spare you the tedious *blahblahblah apartheid blahblahblah ghetto* talk. I don't think we can compare what is happening here with South Africa.

what a relief. it bores the arse off me as well as insulting the intelligence of everyone concerned.

But the wall is separating families, people, villages.

like i said above - it's better than not having it in principle, but in practice, it has been hijacked to further the aims of the "facts on the ground" brigade.

It is a hindrance. Not a mild hindrance. It swallowed up a whole part of my horizon. And if there's one thing I don't like, it's having one part of my very beautiful bethlehemite (hm?) horizon disappearing. The first few months, I'd feel completely asphyxiated whenever I saw the wall.

but the wall has two sides. if it upsets you this much and is that much of a visual blot, the israeli side will eventually, regardless of the political implications, come to feel the same way. and, like i said, we should *all* be treating the wall as temporary. when the israelis no longer have to worry about suicide bombers (like when the islamic political establishment finally grasp the fact that any kind of direct or indirect justification actually makes the prospect of a palestinian state *recede*) then it can be dismantled.

This wall constantly reminds me of how animal I - we - are. I got used to it. Now, I can walk next to the wall and not feel shadowed or scared or not have a claustrophobic attack anymore. Because it's normal. It's like a dog in a cage. I honestly think that I'd feel lost if suddenly the wall disappeared.

as i said before, i can't believe it will be long before research reports start noticing this on the other side - the israelis are also building themselves into a cage.

The wall is blatantly disregarding tons of basic human rights. and the worst thing is the Israeli government is doing it so ... carelessly, you know? It's like, they can afford to do, they will do it, and they really don't care what others think.

*sigh*... you know the phrase "oom schmoom", right? if anyone else wants to know, it basically translates as "UN? human rights? international law? HA! if we were all about to be murdered nobody would lift a finger to save us, like happened in germany. and it's hardly changed recently, look at bosnia, rwanda and darfur and two of those involved muslims, so who cares what the goyim think? they all not very secretly hate us anyway and i'd rather not die, thank you very much."

Oh! nice detail! Whenever you come to Israel just GO check out the Bethlehem check-point. I honestly think the Ministry of Tourism has some sort of sick sense of humor.

i don't think israeli bureaucrats have any sense of humour at all. or irony, or self-consciousness. israel is turning into a banana republic.

BB, I really hope one day you can cross a check-point like the one we have in Bethlehem. I think you'll change your mind once you've done that.

i don't think you and i are that much in disagreement, you know. i don't like checkpoints any more than you do. and i've got mates and family that have had to mind them and they find it all rather scary and would frankly prefer to be doing something else, but if they don't do it, what happens?

i don't want to get into a big debate about the wall and checkpoints because we've only just started talking, but suffice it to say i think we have a certain amount in common and a lot more to talk about.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[KarimK]

ok, but don't they also have a border with jordan? the gazans have a sea coast and a border with egypt as well. again, i'm not applauding the policy or the practice but surely even if the israeli border is closed, it doesn't necessarily follow that everywhere is closed, or am i being stupid and do the israelis control the jordanian border - i think they probably do.

True. But the border with Jordan (the Allenby Bridge) is an awful pain to cross. Plus, you have to go through both Israeli and Jordanian customs... I wonder which are the worst...

(like when the islamic political establishment finally grasp the fact that any kind of direct or indirect justification actually makes the prospect of a palestinian state *recede*)

You're kidding, right? You mean there are other ways to actually make ourselves heard by the world? All my beliefs are shattered.

*sigh*... you know the phrase "oom schmoom", right? if anyone else wants to know, it basically translates as "UN? human rights? international law? HA! if we were all about to be murdered nobody would lift a finger to save us, like happened in germany. and it's hardly changed recently, look at bosnia, rwanda and darfur and two of those involved muslims, so who cares what the goyim think? they all not very secretly hate us anyway and i'd rather not die, thank you very much."

yay! Oom Schmoom. I had forgotten that! You know, I think the Palestinians and the Israelis share a common mentality of : "They all hate us and they all want to kill us "

i don't think you and i are that much in disagreement, you know. i don't like checkpoints any more than you do. and i've got mates and family that have had to mind them and they find it all rather scary and would frankly prefer to be doing something else, but if they don't do it, what happens?

i don't want to get into a big debate about the wall and checkpoints because we've only just started talking, but suffice it to say i think we have a certain amount in common and a lot more to talk about.

I don't think we're in disagreement that much either. We only have completely different experiences of the thing. I'd say that's why we should argue, but whatever

[KarimK]

Oh and Wil, the offer is open to anyone It'll be a pleasure.

[Muslimwoman]

BB did you watch the programme tonight (damn I can't remember what it was called but was about the rising anti-semitism in UK). If so what did you think, an accurate portrayal of a downward trend or scaremongering to an extent?

I was enthralled until Littlejohn more or less said that Muslims do not come under the same sort of victimisation - what planet is he living on? I was very surprised about the attitude of the Left and Ken Livingstone clearly has 'issues'.

[bananabrain]

ah, yes, don't have much time for richard littlecock (as viz used to call him) himself but recorded the programme, but haven't had time to watch it yet. watched "sharpe" instead:

"coom on lads, let's get oop 'ill and twat thurse frenchies!" etc

Littlejohn more or less said that Muslims do not come under the same sort of victimisation - what planet is he living on?

muslims do not need 24hr security outside their schools, mosques and nurseries for fear of murder and vandalism. muslim cemeteries are not being desecrated. muslims, unlike several jews of my acquaintance, are not being attacked in the street for looking muslim - in fact, this didn't even really happen after 9/11 in the UK. and muslim countries like iran, syria, egypt and saudi arabia are not having their academics and trade unions boycotted, their officials subpoenaed for war crimes or their right to call themselves muslim countries called into question. i'm not a scaremonger nor do i claim anti-semites are under the bed, but you should really read the parliamentary report:

http://thepcaa.org/Report.pdf

I was very surprised about the attitude of the Left and Ken Livingstone clearly has 'issues'.

gosh, MW, haven't you come across ghastly george galloway ("sir, i salute you, i salute your indefatigablity" - "you" being saddam hussein, incidentally) and his equally loathsome "respect" party - an alliance of far left trotskyites and islamists? perhaps you are unaware of the difficulty the left has with jews? basically, the left doesn't like religion, but it can deal with it, particularly if it is a disenfranchised ethnic group and one that has been disadvantaged by things that the left definitely doesn't like like "imperialism" and "colonialism". the left loved israel initially - it was mostly founded by socialists from eastern europe on socialist principles (think of the kibbutz) and appeared to be on a mission to bring "progress" to the benighted and backward middle east. plus, of course, after 1948 it was mostly associated with victims - holocaust survivors and refugees from the arab world, which was run, remember, by a bunch of client kings and empires at the time. the jews were beleaguered underdogs. what changed was 1967 - the jews started beating their enemies on their own terms and the enemies were generally supported by the USSR and socialist at least in name and theory if not in practice, like nasser and the ba'ath party, if we ignore its fascist antecedents for a moment.

in short, the problem with livingstone and his ilk is that he likes his jews to be victims, a downtrodden ethnic group who implore the help and moral protection of the socialist international against their racist fascist imperialist colonialist oppressors and hopefully are dependent upon foreign aid. when he is confronted with heavily armed, assertive, self-reliant jews with tans, sunglasses, a diaspora with an open wallet and friends in washington (ptui!!!) he just can't deal with the reality - especially if they are religious on top of it. if that was us in darfur, he'd be first at the demo (albeit he doesn't seem that concerned about how his new best mates the chinese are bankrolling sudan, but then again, they're supposedly socialist too, right?) but seeing as we are not dependent on his charity, the fact that the israelis are supported by his bugbear george bush is simply too much for him.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

"coom on lads, let's get oop 'ill and twat thurse frenchies!" etc

Shalom BB. Isn't Sharpe brilliant and Beanie plays him so well (oh I feel faint ).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

muslims do not need 24hr security outside their schools, mosques and nurseries for fear of murder and vandalism.

Oh my goodness BB, I do apologise, I had no idea these things were happening here, clearly been away too long. Interesting report and very, very scary. I did see the cemetary problem on the documentary but I took it to be an isolated incident (sorry had the tv on as background as I worked).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

"gosh, MW, haven't you come across ghastly george galloway ("sir, i salute you, i salute your indefatigablity" - "you" being saddam hussein, incidentally)

No I haven't and by the sound of things I am damned pleased about it. The loonie left has never interested me in the slightest, so am definately lacking in education there (that is not an invitation for anyone to educate me on the subject, I still have no interest in the loonie left).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

"in short, the problem with livingstone and his ilk is that he likes his jews to be victims, a downtrodden ethnic group who implore the help and moral protection of the socialist international against their racist fascist imperialist colonialist oppressors and hopefully are dependent upon foreign aid.

As much as I think he is a complete twit, he did predict a few years ago that if US continued to back Israel unconditionally that Israel would pretty much do as they like and international law could go hang. That seems to be the case now.

I did read something where he more or less said the Jews in England "have made it" so no longer need his help, so he was off to raise the standards for some other minority group (was it Sikh's or Hindu's?). Give the man an empty egg carton, some sticky back plastic and a pipe cleaner and he'll fix the whole world by next Thursday apparently.

Salaam

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Isn't Sharpe brilliant and Beanie plays him so well (oh I feel faint ).

clearly you and mrs bb are of a mind on the subject, although after reading too much of george mcdonald fraser's antihero flashman i find it terribly hard to take anyone quite so suicidally gung-ho and upright with any degree of seriousness. mrs bb is also a great fan of ray mears, the outdoors-food-and-clothing-made-out-of-bark chappie, so much so that after seeing his programmes she regularly introduces me as "my first husband". tush.

Oh my goodness BB, I do apologise, I had no idea these things were happening here, clearly been away too long. Interesting report and very, very scary. I did see the cemetary problem on the documentary but I took it to be an isolated incident (sorry had the tv on as background as I worked).

it wasn't a great documentary (partly because the presenter's outrage appeared to be manufactured) but useful insofar as it provided basic information. however, i was disgusted by his reductive and dismissive summation of the israel-palestine conflict - as if it was all a big fuss over nothing and the muslim world had not a leg to stand on. you get nowhere by ignoring half the picture even if the "other side" does the same thing.

As much as I think he is a complete twit, he did predict a few years ago that if US continued to back Israel unconditionally that Israel would pretty much do as they like and international law could go hang. That seems to be the case now.

he didn't predict it. it's pretty much conventional wisdom anywhere where they dislike america and israel - like the left. however, i think it has got significantly more so under bush, as he is so associated with the religious right, which had what i'd call an alliance of convenience with the neo-cons. it's the religious right i find so worrying, partly because the israeli religious right has cynically embraced them for reasons of expediency, despite the fact that the reason they agree is because of apocalyptic christian theology which thinks that the jews have to be in israel for armageddon to kick off and jesus to come back. the israeli religious right of course scoffs at this, but go along with it because it gets them carte blanche from the american right, whilst of course embarrassing and appalling those of us who do not share their views.

the thing is, of course, that israel almost always did as it liked anyway - with or without a "nod and a wink" because it mostly suited everyone on the security council except the russians and chinese. however, that's no longer true. the sad truth of course is that international law has *always* gone hang, from tibet to iraq to rwanda to darfur to gaza to cuba, because it doesn't work the way that lay people think it does. moreover, it won't do for the foreseeable future because there are no supranational institutions with coercive power and without that, the name of the game has always been national sovereignty and national interests. in this one can hardly single out israel as a particularly bad offender when the UN includes myanmar, iran, china and zimbabwe - on the other hand when israel is continually sanctioned by UN bodies one is hard put to condemn them for not abiding by the wishes of bodies of which a majority of participants would happily see them obliterated.

I did read something where he more or less said the Jews in England "have made it" so no longer need his help, so he was off to raise the standards for some other minority group (was it Sikh's or Hindu's?).

bah. we've never had anyone's help (least of all his) and since we became middle class after the war we've certainly never had the support of the left. like the hindus and sikhs, we've just knuckled down, got on with it and been good citizens. the likes of livingstone prefer to stimulate addiction to government handouts. i don't really understand why - surely it's better if people can help themselves?

Give the man an empty egg carton, some sticky back plastic and a pipe cleaner and he'll fix the whole world by next Thursday apparently.

hur hur hur - which is presumably why he keeps raiding my council tax. i'm so glad he's my representative. oh what am i saying, i'm part of the problem of course.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

mrs bb is also a great fan of ray mears, the outdoors-food-and-clothing-made-out-of-bark chappie, so much so that after seeing his programmes she regularly introduces me as "my first husband". tush.

Shalom BB

Please pass on my compliments to Mrs BB and tell her I think she has impeccable taste in second husbands.

What you seem to fail to realise BB is that we ladies are not in the least bit interested in Mr Sharpes military prowess, only in the imaginary scene that follows (rough sweaty hero returns from battle, blood soaked and adrenaline filled, her bosom heaving in her breast.....well you get the picture).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

you get nowhere by ignoring half the picture even if the "other side" does the same thing.

Did you see the documentary by Paddy Ashdown recently? I thoroughly enjoyed that. He spoke to both sides and went back and forth, with each sides issues. He didn't try to put forward any simplistic solutions but seemed to identify some real and genuine issues for both sides. Personally I wish he had been given the peace envoy position instead of Mr B Liar.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

fact that the reason they agree is because of apocalyptic christian theology which thinks that the jews have to be in israel for armageddon to kick off and jesus to come back.

If it has to be every Jew in Israel, please promise me you will stay in London, I'm just not ready for Armaggedon yet.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

in this one can hardly single out israel as a particularly bad offender when the UN includes myanmar, iran, china and zimbabwe - on the other hand when israel is continually sanctioned by UN bodies one is hard put to condemn them for not abiding by the wishes of bodies of which a majority of participants would happily see them obliterated.

I wasn't trying to suggest this only goes on with Israel, however with Bush on the news offering his "unwavering support" for Israel it does tend to bring Israel to the forefront of the mind. I have yet to see Bush say the same about Iran, China or Zimbabwe.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the likes of livingstone prefer to stimulate addiction to government handouts. i don't really understand why - surely it's better if people can help themselves?

Don't be naive BB. If you don't need government handouts and can make yourselves middle class then you are a) as good as your 'saviours' and b) remove their role as boy scouts. You still haven't read your stereotype handbook yet, have you?

Salaam
MW

[Francis king]

karimK, woah, you have blown me away today, reading this thread...

I am in the UK- yes, I read the newspapers and watch TV, but your description of all those checkpoints and zones and rules, and ID cards, and you are just going to school... just a young person going about your day. My life is a walk in the park. And I still moan.

If you have no objection I would like to use your words in my blog. I will quote you, of course. It's okay if you say no, I will not mind.

Congratulations on still being a human being.

[Muslimwoman]

Where is your blog Francis?

[KarimK]

uh, sure Francis, I don't mind you quoting me at all... although I doubt there's anything worth quoting in there