Kuffar or Infidels?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by KarimK

"With a green identity card [the Palestinian ID], you can't be human"

I have heard this said by Arabs about the Jews, where will the insanity end? I see news items from one side and I feel so sorry for then, then you see the other side and feel so sorry for them. There seems to be good and bad on both sides but it is usually the voices of the bad that are loudest.

Originally Posted by KarimK

because my ideal of a one state solution really is a utopia.

That's ok, I have a utopian vision for the whole world where tolerance is the buzzword in every language. I am a born dreamer

Originally Posted by KarimK

"but you still FEEL the underlying and mutual suspicions.

I know it is a silly comparison, so please forgive me but what you are saying reminds me of the musician Sami Yusuf. There is always debate as to whether he is Sunni or Shia, yet Muslims of both love his music. But you can actually feel the potential, that if he declared he was one or the other that the other group would immediately vilify him.

I also feel it here when I go into a Christian shop. It even sounds silly to say Christian shop but they are segregated and Muslims employ Muslims and Christians employ Christians (usually because they are family but not only for this reason). When I first came here people told me so proudly how they live together with no animosity and complete friendship. I used to buy drinks and cigarettes from a kiosk opposite my shop. One day the Muslim Brotherhood came to talk to my husband and asked (politely) why I used a Christian shop and not the Muslim one in the next street. Even though my husband suggested politely that they mind their own business, after they left he suggested to me that I should change shops or people may stop using our shop.

So I do understand what you are saying, on the surface everything is nice and friendly but underneath something lurks.

Originally Posted by KarimK

"But this is specific to Bethlehem and its region, because it's one of the places where the Christian population really is significant.

How does this play out with respect to religious monuments? Are any shared and relevant to both faiths?

Originally Posted by KarimK

"That's the bad side of the story. Now, the good side!

I am so delighted to hear that there is some good news.

Originally Posted by KarimK

to see priests giving blessings to Muslims and everything.

Wow that is a surprise but a very welcome one. Why can't everyone follow this example?

Originally Posted by KarimK

"Oh, one last thing about relations between these two communities. Marriage. Happens, quite a lot. But it gives SUCH a BAD impression. I have a friend whose dad is Christian and whose mom is Muslim. Her mom's side of the family won't have anything to do with them.

Here we differ. I know a few Muslim men that have married Christian women and the families 'seem' fine about it. There is an awful lot of hinting and expectancy from the family that the wife will convert. Although that said the ladies are european so it may make a difference?

It sort of makes a mockery of the Islamic teaching "there is no compulsion in religion".

Thank you, it is so interesting to hear about your life there and no bombing cafe's right

[bananabrain]

karimk,

first of all welcome to CR - i don't think we've had an arab christian here before, much less one from bethlehem. forget the french lycée - your english is excellent.

it's nice to hear from someone who's on the ground with a reasonable point of view. obviously i have a large number of relatives in israel, some of whom are in range of katyushas from lebanon and others in range of qassams from gaza, to say nothing of the ones in me'ah she'arim and alon shvut.

i was quite struck by your story:

Once, a friend of mine was going through a check-point. She was sick : usually, you're supposed to get out of the car and go through a maze to get to the other side. She asked the soldier-girl if she could pass. The girl was like : "No, can't, everyone has to go down, etc." So my friend told her : "Okay, fair enough. But can't you bend the rules a bit to be human?"
you know what the girl answered?
"With a green identity card [the Palestinian ID], you can't be human"

i can actually just hear that tone of voice - it's very familiar. you know, in the diaspora we spend quite a lot of time rolling our eyes over just what a bunch of arrogant rude sods israelis can be - i am sure the checkpoints bring out the worst in what are, lest we forget, people probably not much older than you are. i'm not excusing anyone, by the way, but i find the border checks at ben gurion unpleasant enough as a jew - goodness knows what it would be like to have to go through that on my way to work every day. puts london traffic into perspective i dare say. jews are certainly not immune to abuse of power, that's for sure, even if we don't quite control the entire world *yet* (muwahahahahahahaaaa, i should probably add) i find israeli officialdom and bureaucracy insufferable - just as inefficient as the UK, but a dam' sight less polite. i often think that if i ever went to live in israel, i'd open a business teaching people etiquette and good manners. i mean, sometimes it's quite refreshing how direct israelis can be, but other times it can be abrasive to the point of, well, you know what i mean. i really wonder what they teach people at school there. unfortunately, i know what gets taught in the schools run by the really religious people - on both sides.

in fact, i'm glad there's a palestinian christian here who can give a bit of context to some of the sillier american evangelicals who seem to think every aspect of israeli government policy is directly inspired by G!D. this sort of thing gives religion a bad name - it's just a government. the president just got impeached (good thing too) - in fact, the only good thing you can really say about the israeli political system is that it's better than any of the local alternatives and at least there's a free press and recourse to the law. i wish people would understand that israel is neither a demonic cancer, nor a choir of saints and angels. in the end, the work of the Divine must be done by us humans - and, these days, those who claim they have a direct line in to the Will of G!D are more likely to behave like they're working for the "other side".

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Muslimwoman]

Sorry Karim, there is already so much for you to answer here but we are so grateful to have you here and maybe dispel some of our media driven misconceptions.

I was delighted to see last night that the British reporter Alan Johnstone had been released. Does this bode well for you, do you feel that the latest political shift may take the peace process forward or is it just another bunch of political thugs trying to get brownie points with the west?

Salaam

[KarimK]

in fact, the only good thing you can really say about the israeli political system is that it's better than any of the local alternatives and at least there's a free press and recourse to the law.

Yes, if there is one thing one should concede to the Israeli government, it's that it IS a democracy - to a certain extent, true, but I mean... The fact that Ilan Pappé is allowed to publish his provocative book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (which I haven't read yet, but I really want to... not that I think there ever was such a thing as an "ethnic cleansing", it's still probably an interesting read) goes a long way to show that free speech exists in Israel. Same thing for newspapers such as Ha'Aretz. I unfortunately can't say it's the same on our side of the border...

Although I can't say that Israel treats Arab Israelis and the Arab residents of Jerusalem fairly... In fact, they're considered as a democratic threat (god, I love that expression... I think it was Netanyahu who used it a couple of years ago, I still find it very funny and scary and revolting. but mostly funny)... And the Israeli Govt really isn't subtle in the way they try to rid themselves of the Arabs in Israel. Example : a lot of my friends - residents of Jerusalem - have to pay taxes and everything, just like the rest of the residents. Yet, they're not entitled to social security, etc. And whenever a resident of Jerusalem gets a foreign passport, he's not entitled to a Jerusalem ID anymore (whereas the Jewish residents can have other passports, not a problem.)

That's the paradox of Israel - a democracy (sort of) that perpetrates occupation and discriminates its own citizens... It's not easy being an Arab Israeli, you have to chose between your "Arabic" roots and your "Israeli" nationality... and you usually end up rejected by both.

obviously i have a large number of relatives in israel, some of whom are in range of katyushas from lebanon and others in range of qassams from gaza, to say nothing of the ones in me'ah she'arim and alon shvut.

Do you visit often? It mustn't be easy for your relatives (well, except for the ones in me'ah she'arim... my school's right next to me'ah she'arim... I'll never get how a neighborhood can be both so ugly and bee-oo-tiful at the same time! )

i can actually just hear that tone of voice - it's very familiar. you know, in the diaspora we spend quite a lot of time rolling our eyes over just what a bunch of arrogant rude sods israelis can be - i am sure the checkpoints bring out the worst in what are, lest we forget, people probably not much older than you are. jews are certainly not immune to abuse of power, that's for sure, even if we don't quite control the entire world *yet* (muwahahahahahahaaaa, i should probably add) i find israeli officialdom and bureaucracy insufferable - just as inefficient as the UK, but a dam' sight less polite. i often think that if i ever went to live in israel, i'd open a business teaching people etiquette and good manners. i mean, sometimes it's quite refreshing how direct israelis can be, but other times it can be abrasive to the point of, well, you know what i mean. i really wonder what they teach people at school there. unfortunately, i know what gets taught in the schools run by the really religious people - on both sides.

I cross check-points a lot. So I sort of have a list of "mean, meaner, meanest" soldiers. I can decide from afar if it's going to be a cool guy, a mean guy, or an a-word. Seriously, after a while, you get a knack at it. Although it's not excusable, and I sometimes feel revolted when some stupid kid humiliates an old, blind guy I also feel sorry for those guys. Most of them had no idea what the army is, who the Palestinians where (I bet you most of them thought we were some sort of myth before going to the army), etc. And they're just kids. My age. They're my age, and they have to do this horrible three-year stupid army sh*t. There are those who really are excited to go to the army (in the words of one of my *former* friends, "I want to kill a lot of Palestinians so I can get promoted!" Yeah. Imagine that.) to defend (sorry, I don't mean to be offensive, but I HAVE to roll my eyes here) "Eretz Israel" ... and then, there are those who are just there because they have to.

As for politeness... yup. I don't have anything else to say. I don't get that either. Ever try driving a car in Israel?

And what gets taught at schools (on both sides, true)... Don't get me started, it depresses me. I'm SO grateful that I got to go to a french lycee and not have to go through the amazing bs they teach kids here. An this goes for the Israelis too...

i can actually just hear that tone of voice - it's very familiar. you know, in the diaspora we spend quite a lot of time rolling our eyes over just what a bunch of arrogant rude sods israelis can be -

I'm glad that the Jews of the diaspora stay true to (beware, stereotypes ahead)(but good stereotypes, so it's fine, right?) their sense of humor and their unmatched skill to make fun of themselves.

I also feel it here when I go into a Christian shop. It even sounds silly to say Christian shop but they are segregated and Muslims employ Muslims and Christians employ Christians (usually because they are family but not only for this reason). When I first came here people told me so proudly how they live together with no animosity and complete friendship. I used to buy drinks and cigarettes from a kiosk opposite my shop. One day the Muslim Brotherhood came to talk to my husband and asked (politely) why I used a Christian shop and not the Muslim one in the next street. Even though my husband suggested politely that they mind their own business, after they left he suggested to me that I should change shops or people may stop using our shop.

Funny story, Muslimwoman.(well, funny... funny isn't what it used to be ) And it illustrates perfectly this bad faith we have. We don't want to acknowledge this animosity that is VERY real but it's still there. We want to give to the world this ideal picture of Muslim and Christian Arabs being united (very much like this other illusion some still believe in of a unity of the Arab Nations) but it's just not true.
Oh! Except in one case! Oh god, how beautiful it was, when the THREE representatives of the THREE religions spoke out against homosexuality together on the occasion of the Gay Parade in Jerusalem!
How lovely, united in intolerance.

How does this play out with respect to religious monuments? Are any shared and relevant to both faiths?

I think it's pretty safe to say that most Christian religious monuments are relevant to Muslims. Apart from the Khader thing... Well, for instance, the Milk Grotto is this shrine next to the Nativity where the Holy Family is said to have stayed on their way to Egypt. When Mary wanted to breast-feed the Baby, milk flew out of her breast and onto the rocks of the grotto. It's a place where pregnant women and women looking to get pregnant go pray. I think (although I'm not 100% sure) that a lot of Muslim women go there too.
Same thing with the Nativity, Muslims go pray there a lot.

I think in general the holy places are well kept and respected by both faiths.

As for the marriage issue. To be honest, if I EVER told my family that I was going to marry a Muslim girl, they'd go berserk. Really. Same thing for one of my Muslim friends. If she ever decided to marry a Christian guy, it'd be hell on earth. In Bethlehem, this thing happens a lot : young Christian girls often run away with Muslim guys (it's funny, it's usually Christian girls and Muslim guys not the other way 'round, I don't know why).. It's a major crisis for a couple of days. I mean once the Patriarch intervened and the girl got back home and they arranged for her and her family to get out of the country.
(three rolling-eyes-smileys were necessary. Although they look a bit happy there, they should be a bit more bitter)

That said, I also want to say that it does happen that Christians and Muslims marry and are very happy. I told you the story of this friend of mine, but I also know these two kids, whose father is a Muslim and whose mom is a Christian. As far as I know, they're happily married, the woman is still a Christian and the guy is still a Muslim. They celebrate everything together. Usually, when a Christian and a Muslim marry, I'd say they stay happy as long as the families don't get between them.

As for the ladies you're speaking of. I don't know, but I honestly think everyone's expecting them to convert. I'd be really surprised if they don't.

Oh, I have a question. I heard there were massacres between Coptic Christians and Muslims in Egypt. Is it true? By the way, do you live in Cairo?

As for Johnston... I was also delighted, because BBC is one of the really rare TV stations that I respect and actually like. (as opposed to say, CNN, Fox News and Al Jazeerah) But I'm pretty sure the "peace process" (hey! someone still believes in that thing!) is just going to stagnate. Probably for a couple more years. Or decades. Until small stuff, like education, change our views on everything.

Or until the world really gets sick of us bickering Semites and decides to bomb us all

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by KarimK

Oh! Except in one case! Oh god, how beautiful it was, when the THREE representatives of the THREE religions spoke out against homosexuality together on the occasion of the Gay Parade in Jerusalem!
How lovely, united in intolerance.

.......ask anyone here, it's not often I am lost for words but you got me. {MW hangs head in shame and wonders what Allah must make of it all}

Originally Posted by KarimK

As for the marriage issue. To be honest, if I EVER told my family that I was going to marry a Muslim girl, they'd go berserk. Really. Same thing for one of my Muslim friends.

So how do your family feel about you having Muslim friends?

Originally Posted by KarimK

I'd say they stay happy as long as the families don't get between them.

I think that is the same for any marriage, whether religious or not. My motto is get married then move as far away from family as you can get - I found a different continent works

Originally Posted by KarimK

As for the ladies you're speaking of. I don't know, but I honestly think everyone's expecting them to convert. I'd be really surprised if they don't.

I feel sure there is pressure, even if it is subtle.

Originally Posted by KarimK

Oh, I have a question. I heard there were massacres between Coptic Christians and Muslims in Egypt. Is it true? By the way, do you live in Cairo?

No I live in Sheben el Kom, which is a farming town but bizarrely has produced 3 presidents now......wonder if that explains the state of Egyptian politics??? So am about an hours drive from Cairo, into the Nile Delta.

The religious driven violence has been growing here. I will post a link for a short newspaper article from 2005. It is becoming a worrying trend in the big cities. It all goes back to a play in a church in 2003 and they are still fighting about it in 2007

Egypt's Christian-Muslim divide - Editorials & Commentary - International Herald Tribune

This is a great article by the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, I keep the site bookmarked as it is a really info resource:

Welcome to Cairo institute for human rights studies


Salaam

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by KarimK

The fact that Ilan Pappé is allowed to publish his provocative book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine ...goes a long way to show that free speech exists in Israel. Same thing for newspapers such as Ha'Aretz.

i would add b'tzelem, adalah, yesh gvul, yesh din, rabbis for human rights, anarchists against the wall, the women in black and machsom watch, not all of whose views and policies i endorse, but their existence is part of a healthy democracy. the same goes for women in green, the yesha council and arutz sheva, whose views i disagree with even more.

In fact, they're considered as a democratic threat (god, I love that expression...

i think you probably mean a demographic threat, as most israeli arabs vote for a mainstream party as opposed to hadash or the UAL. basically it's code for "arabs have too many babies". i personally find it not just revolting, but entirely hypocritical given that an arguably larger threat exists to israeli democracy with regards to the birth rates of the ultra-orthodox.

I think it was Netanyahu who used it a couple of years ago

i thought it was lieberman or benny elon someone else like that. i loathe all of them. bibi in particularly chills my blood with his populism and, unfortunately, he's the only one that comes across on TV as not being an inarticulate, mumbling banana-republic embarrassment. "eeeah, ze terroristeek eenfrastructure, eahhhhh..." and so on. sheesh, can't they afford english lessons?

And the Israeli Govt really isn't subtle in the way they try to rid themselves of the Arabs in Israel.

as i think i've already pointed out, subtlety is not generally recognised as being the israelis' strong suit in interpersonal or political matters, which is very sad when you see what they're capable of in science, technology and academia, to say nothing of the religious disciplines.

Do you visit often? It mustn't be easy for your relatives (well, except for the ones in me'ah she'arim... my school's right next to me'ah she'arim... I'll never get how a neighborhood can be both so ugly and bee-oo-tiful at the same time! )

a pair of my cousins and their kids live in m-s; they seem to have succeeded in alienating most of the rest of the family - isn't it often the way... as for my relatives in the north, my auntie is well known on her moshav for refusing to go into the shelter, because if her number's up, it's up and if not, then she'll be fine - besides, my uncle can't smoke in there. she is kind of a hard-arse though.

Although it's not excusable, and I sometimes feel revolted when some stupid kid humiliates an old, blind guy

you're not the only one.

I also feel sorry for those guys. Most of them had no idea what the army is, who the Palestinians where (I bet you most of them thought we were some sort of myth before going to the army), etc. And they're just kids. My age. They're my age, and they have to do this horrible three-year stupid army sh*t.

i wish i could wave this quote at all the idiots in europe who think that israeli soldiers are the devil incarnate and wake up in the morning wondering how many children they can shoot. the anti-israel propaganda bandwagon is very strong. i sometimes wonder why i haven't gone and given the palestinian who works four desks away from me a good kicking if i'm like that.

There are those who really are excited to go to the army (in the words of one of my *former* friends, "I want to kill a lot of Palestinians so I can get promoted!" Yeah. Imagine that.)

people just don't *think*, do they?

to defend (sorry, I don't mean to be offensive, but I HAVE to roll my eyes here) "Eretz Israel"

it's not offensive. i just don't think these guys understand what the concept of eretz yisrael is supposed to be. the state is a different beast entirely. look, i had an excellent zionist education, i'm a graduate of the institute for youth leaders from abroad in jerusalem, i'm pretty religious by most people's standards (if not by that of right-wing loonies) but messianic delusions have caused us no end of pain over the centuries. and who said the nation-state of all things was a religious entity? until people start seeing "eretz yisrael" as a religious concept for the purposes of halakhah and not a political one (which would allow jews to live all over the middle east, presumably anywhere between the nile and the euphrates) and count themselves as if they were living "ba-aretz" *REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICAL AUTHORITY OF WHICH THEY ARE A CITIZEN* we are locked into a stupid political endgame whch requires hebron, shechem/nablus and tekoa to be ethnically cleansed of jews and means arabs can't get a fair deal in tel aviv, ra'anana or carmiel. the separation wall is a symptom of our inability to find solutions, for all that it is effective in preventing attacks. i'm not suggesting that we remove it, but i would rather make it obsolete, like the berlin wall and, hopefully, the nation-state itself.

As for politeness... yup. I don't have anything else to say. I don't get that either. Ever try driving a car in Israel?

hur, hur, hur, "maniak!!"

I'm glad that the Jews of the diaspora stay true to (beware, stereotypes ahead)(but good stereotypes, so it's fine, right?) their sense of humor and their unmatched skill to make fun of themselves.

the advertising and PR industries in israel are dominated by english people and americans. my wife and i have a joke about this which is basically around how an israeli ad campaign would go:

"buy eet. ees good. if you don't like, don't buy. i don't care. you're an eediot."

We want to give to the world this ideal picture of Muslim and Christian Arabs being united (very much like this other illusion some still believe in of a unity of the Arab Nations) but it's just not true.

*cough* klal yisrael *cough*.

Oh! Except in one case! Oh god, how beautiful it was, when the THREE representatives of the THREE religions spoke out against homosexuality together on the occasion of the Gay Parade in Jerusalem! How lovely, united in intolerance.

there was rather a lot of ironic amusement over here about that.

As for Johnston... I was also delighted, because BBC is one of the really rare TV stations that I respect and actually like.

although i note that yasser abd rabbo said the whole thing was a put-up job in order to enable hamas to gain a propaganda victory - although, let's face it, he would say that. but i don't think i'd put it past them.

Or until the world really gets sick of us bickering Semites and decides to bomb us all

just a small thing FYI - "semitic" is a term from comparative lingustics. there's no such thing as "semites" in an ethnic sense - you only have to look at the ethnic diversity of both jews and arabs to see it. obviously, i am not suggesting for a moment that you are doing this, but most people who talk about "semites" are doing it in order to say "i can't be anti-semitic, i'm a semite myself" - to which i always reply, ok, then, does the term "jew-hater" work for ya?

if you have the time and are interested, i encourage you to visit Pickled Politics, a so-called "progressive" (that's code for "left-wing") blog where there are quite a lot of daft opinions about israel and palestine, although it's really about topics of interest to anyone brown - as an indian/iraqi jew i appear to qualify, he said, tongue-in-cheek. i'm a regular poster there. the same goes for you, muslimwoman.

Originally Posted by muslimwoman

I live in Sheben el Kom, which is a farming town but bizarrely has produced 3 presidents now......wonder if that explains the state of Egyptian politics???

you can take the girl out of london, but you can't take london out of the girl, eh, mw? next you'll be saying mubarak says "poo-arrrrrr" in front of all his sentences.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[KarimK]

Yes, demographic threat... Don't know why I said democratic.
And I'm preeeeetty sure it was Netanyahu.
here :

Netanyahu: Israel's Arabs are the real demographic threat - Haaretz - Israel News

bibi in particularly chills my blood with his populism and, unfortunately, he's the only one that comes across on TV as not being an inarticulate, mumbling banana-republic embarrassment. "eeeah, ze terroristeek eenfrastructure, eahhhhh..." and so on. sheesh, can't they afford english lessons?

Oh well, we're not doing any better on our side of the border. And YES! I was AMAZED last time I heard Netanyahu speak! Did he take English lessons or something? Seriously, unless I'm hallucinating, he used to have a really HEAVY accent before, right?

which is very sad when you see what they're capable of in science, technology and academia, to say nothing of the religious disciplines.

This is what I will never ever understand about Israel. The best medical facilities in the world, brilliant in technology, outstanding Universities on one hand... and you've got pigs on the other.

i sometimes wonder why i haven't gone and given the palestinian who works four desks away from me a good kicking if i'm like that.

Well, what can I tell you. You're not a real Jew.

"buy eet. ees good. if you don't like, don't buy. i don't care. you're an eediot."

Did you ever notice that when you go into a store (especially in Jerusalem), the guy really makes you feel that you are disturbing him - he was about to take his afternoon nap - and you're not welcome?

Quote:
Oh! Except in one case! Oh god, how beautiful it was, when the THREE representatives of the THREE religions spoke out against homosexuality together on the occasion of the Gay Parade in Jerusalem! How lovely, united in intolerance.
there was rather a lot of ironic amusement over here about that.

Really? I thought it was pathetic. I can understand that some people may not want a Gay Parade to happen in Jerusalem but I still think it's stupid. I mean, come on.
But it was just funny, you know? Suddenly, they all loved each other! "yes, yes! Even the Jews [because very obviously the Jews are the epitome of evil], they won't stand that!" Ah, the day of the Parade, I feigned ignorance and asked a taxi what was happening. "Oh, you know. Jews fighting". Obviously, there are no Arab homosexuals. Homosexuality is probably a Jewish conspiracy anyway.

just a small thing FYI - "semitic" is a term from comparative lingustics. there's no such thing as "semites" in an ethnic sense - you only have to look at the ethnic diversity of both jews and arabs to see it. obviously, i am not suggesting for a moment that you are doing this, but most people who talk about "semites" are doing it in order to say "i can't be anti-semitic, i'm a semite myself" - to which i always reply, ok, then, does the term "jew-hater" work for ya?

Thanks, I honestly didn't know that. I always thought "semitic" applied both for a set of languages and for an ethnicity... which is stupid, come to think of it, because of the diversity of both Jews and Arabs. Ah, well, at least now I know.

as an indian/iraqi jew

Tell me! Tell me! Is there a Jewish community in India? Is it a big community? How did it get there? I met Muslims, Hindus, Christians in India, but no Jews.

(oh! I know! I read somewhere that the 10 lost tribes of Israel reappeared in India. that must be it )

t's not offensive. i just don't think these guys understand what the concept of eretz yisrael is supposed to be. the state is a different beast entirely. look, i had an excellent zionist education, i'm a graduate of the institute for youth leaders from abroad in jerusalem, i'm pretty religious by most people's standards (if not by that of right-wing loonies) but messianic delusions have caused us no end of pain over the centuries. and who said the nation-state of all things was a religious entity? until people start seeing "eretz yisrael" as a religious concept for the purposes of halakhah and not a political one (which would allow jews to live all over the middle east, presumably anywhere between the nile and the euphrates) and count themselves as if they were living "ba-aretz" *REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICAL AUTHORITY OF WHICH THEY ARE A CITIZEN* we are locked into a stupid political endgame whch requires hebron, shechem/nablus and tekoa to be ethnically cleansed of jews and means arabs can't get a fair deal in tel aviv, ra'anana or carmiel. the separation wall is a symptom of our inability to find solutions, for all that it is effective in preventing attacks. i'm not suggesting that we remove it, but i would rather make it obsolete, like the berlin wall and, hopefully, the nation-state itself.

I didn't know that about Eretz Yisrael - thanks. Does that mean can Eretz Yisrael can exist anywhere in the world?

As for the Wall.. I have a huge problem. I think the Wall cannot be justified in any way. Yet, when anyone asks me : "Ok. Forget the ethical aspect of the thing as regards the Palestinians. But can you honestly tell me that the Wall didn't reduce suicide bombings?"
Well, it's true - the wall did reduce suicide bombings. What can I say? It's the worst solution anyone could ever find, it disregards all sorts of human rights laws that were supposedly universal, it disregards international law, moral law, it took even MORE lands from the Palestinian Territories, but if we have to be pragmatic, there are statistically less suicide bombings today.

MW :

So how do your family feel about you having Muslim friends?

Oh no, that's definitely not a problem. I mean we all have Muslim friends. But when it comes to marriage. Well, suddenly, we're like two different peoples, different values (which is true to an extent, but different values don't make intermarriages impossible), different worldviews, whatever.

I like th Herald Tribune article you posted ... "Of the many things one should not mention in polite company in Egypt, friction between Muslims and Christians is near the top of the list." Same thing over here. Except that we may talk about it as long as we're between ourselves. If a foreigner asks, all of a sudden we just looooooove each other.

oh, one last thing, BB :

hur, hur, hur, "maniak!!"

See, this is cool. Jews and Arabs share a LOT of swear words! I think we should have swear words and general lack of any driving etiquette (or etiquette in general) as a basis for building a future bi-national state.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

"eeeah, ze terroristeek eenfrastructure, eahhhhh..." and so on. sheesh, can't they afford english lessons?

Oy gevalt, vot do you vorry for ze eenfrastructure, come my son eat chicken soup. Vot, a mother not allowed to care for her children, just schleping all day, nobody call her, nobody care for her. You marry a girl, can't cook, can't clean just vork and still no grandchildren, oy vey. I told you, didn't I tell you. Eat, eat. I didn't see you at synagogue this week, vy? Mrs Zimmermann was there, you should see vot that woman has done .........................

Originally Posted by bananabrain

which is very sad when you see what they're capable of in science, technology and academia, to say nothing of the religious disciplines.

Reminds me of another group of people who shall remain nameless but are also holding themselves back with politics and intollerence. Oops now who could I mean?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i sometimes wonder why i haven't gone and given the palestinian who works four desks away from me a good kicking if i'm like that.

You mean you haven't? What are you waiting for? Sorry but the stereotype handbook says you are a Jew so you have to be intollerent and aggressive, whilst plotting to take over the worlds economic system - will you please get on and read the book, we are waiting for an excuse to hate you.

Have you heard about Karim, he's off to blow up a cafe this weekend and I'm off to protest in the streets (no idea what for but someone is bound to insult my religion before tomorrow).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

"buy eet. ees good. if you don't like, don't buy. i don't care. you're an eediot."

LMAO. I do wish Mrs BB was inclined to come and discuss with us, she sounds like an amazing woman.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the same goes for you, muslimwoman.

I'm on my way, thank you.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

you can take the girl out of london, but you can't take london out of the girl, eh, mw? next you'll be saying mubarak says "poo-arrrrrr" in front of all his sentences.

It's so true, we are just a culmination of our experiences - phew that explains why I'm so mixed up then.

I would never say such a thing about our beloved leader, or indeed suggest he says "cash not cheque" at the end of every meeting.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by KarimK

See, this is cool. Jews and Arabs share a LOT of swear words! I think we should have swear words and general lack of any driving etiquette (or etiquette in general) as a basis for building a future bi-national state.

Please, please, please teach me some arabic swear words. Nobody will teach me any because "ladies don't swear". Imagine my husbands face when I get back and the first row we have I swear at him (well he swears at me but he thinks I don't know they are swear words - osomack is his favourite).

[KarimK]

WHAT?

You don't know any swear words?!

What a shame! shame, shame, shame! haram!

The Arabic language is at its most beautiful when it comes to swear words!
Okay, perhaps not "most beautiful", but definitely at its most creative!

I don't know if the Egyptians swear like we do, but "osomak" doesn't mean anything... unless you put a "k" before --> "kos omak" I'll leave it at that. You try to figure it out. Not hard, you know that "omak"/"omek" means "your mother"

are you fluent in Arabic? Can you read/write? If so, I really, truly respect you. It's not easy. At all. Especially for someone who isn't born 'in it'. (I mean I can't write or read properly... it's more in the lines of deciphering)

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by KarimK

The Arabic language is at its most beautiful when it comes to swear words! Okay, perhaps not "most beautiful", but definitely at its most creative!

There we go then, I can't judge that until I learn some, so it can be an educational experience for me.

Originally Posted by KarimK

I don't know if the Egyptians swear like we do, but "osomak" doesn't mean anything... unless you put a "k" before --> "kos omak" I'll leave it at that. You try to figure it out. Not hard, you know that "omak"/"omek" means "your mother"

My husband calls me this when we argue. Wait till I see him again {MW rolls up sleeves and prepares to give a right tongue lashing}. Oh I missed the "k". The little sh*t, he is really in trouble now.

Originally Posted by KarimK

are you fluent in Arabic? Can you read/write? If so, I really, truly respect you. It's not easy. At all. Especially for someone who isn't born 'in it'. (I mean I can't write or read properly... it's more in the lines of deciphering)

You are doing better than I am, I am still being taught to write the alphabet by my 7 year old brother in law All I can read and write are the numbers and of course some religious words, which have no other day to day use. I am getting there with conversation, as long as people talk slowly. Once all the family sit and chat together I get a bit lost (mainly because they can have 3 different conversations at the same time) but can generally get the gist of what they are saying by picking up key words but I can't really join in yet. My sister in law doesn't speak english but she now understands my form of arabic and always tries to translate things into arabic words she knows I understand.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by KarimK

I was AMAZED last time I heard Netanyahu speak! Did he take English lessons or something? Seriously, unless I'm hallucinating, he used to have a really HEAVY accent before, right?

as far as i remember, he always spoke perfect american - of course in europe and even in the UK, that just confirms that israel is really just an outpost of america in the middle east. which it isn't, despite it being convenient for many people to think so.

The best medical facilities in the world, brilliant in technology, outstanding Universities on one hand... and you've got pigs on the other.

i guess that's what they have to thank the nazis and the arab-israeli conflict for - a siege mentality and the idea that everyone is out to get them; which, incidentally, does not always appear to be completely without foundation. add to that the idea that if they don't stick up from themselves the world will just shrug as they are exterminated and it all adds up to a certain "sod you all" attitude to say the least which unfortunately operates internally as well as externally, despite sometimes being refreshing in its directness.

Well, what can I tell you. You're not a real Jew.

hur, hur, hur. we're having lunch together instead.

Did you ever notice that when you go into a store (especially in Jerusalem), the guy really makes you feel that you are disturbing him - he was about to take his afternoon nap - and you're not welcome?

hehehe. that's right, they're doing you a favour deigning to serve you in order that your drab little life can be brightened up by their rare and precious products. they must have learned this from guitar shops.

Even the Jews [because very obviously the Jews are the epitome of evil], they won't stand that!" Ah, the day of the Parade, I feigned ignorance and asked a taxi what was happening. "Oh, you know. Jews fighting". Obviously, there are no Arab homosexuals. Homosexuality is probably a Jewish conspiracy anyway.

hur, hur, hur. funny, we always blame the greeks. and the persians. and the romans. personally, i always find it somewhat amusing that the pashtouns, the tribe that produced the taleban, have a folk song which goes "there's a boy across the river with a bottom like a peach but, alas! i cannot swim!"

Tell me! Tell me! Is there a Jewish community in India? Is it a big community? How did it get there? I met Muslims, Hindus, Christians in India, but no Jews.

the main community is arabic speaking (actually, more like was) from baghdad and dates back about 2-300 years, but there's another community, the "bene israel" who have been there a really long time and speak marathi, then there's the cochinis who have been there at least a thousand years but there are very few of them left and then the bene menashe who are the chaps you heard about who are presently in the process of coming to israel. most of the indian jews are now in london or israel. of course the baghdadi community dates back to 586 BCE when it was babylon, before there were arabs there even, but the jewish community in iraq (like that of egypt, lebanon, syria, libya and most other muslim countries) was expelled in 1948 after the establishment of the state of israel and, of course, most of them went to israel - with rather a jaundiced view of arabs, unsurprisingly.

Does that mean can Eretz Yisrael can exist anywhere in the world?

nope. the borders are given in the Torah, but they describe a really large piece of land, sometimes called "greater israel" by both extreme right-wingers and conspiracy theorists. nobody reasonable thinks israeli