knowledge and belief

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Thoughts like this have been wandering through my head for some time now.

It's difficult to let go of indoctrination but I have had a liberating realisation, that if God is the way some people say he is, then come what may I would choose not to worship him.

This sounds very much like my own experience. It takes time. At least, for me it did. Many years. One tiny insight at a time. A man shared a personal story in a small group discussion that had quite an impact on me. He talked about the way his church responded when he was going through a divorce. The pastor emphasized grace.

He said to the group, "I thought, if this is grace, then I don't want it." Since then, I have taken the same approach to the "love" that my own family and former church insist on imposing on me. If that is love then I don't want it. True love should not hurt so much.

It seems this may be a necessary part of the journey for some of us as we confront indoctrinations. Before we can really move forward we need the courage and faith and trust to "get mad at God," or to confront the main and central character of those indoctrinations...that's just what comes to me as I see the similarities of our various experiences.

I now think what I think, and ask God to forgive any erroneous views, any God worth praying to will answer my prayer.

I recognize this step, too. As you acquire a level of comfort with that you may gain the courage and faith and trust to move even further along the road. If not, you have definitely "left the fatherland," or "come out from among them." This last phrase is what God supposedly told Abraham when he left his father's country. It has had special meaning for me when I had to leave.

All the best on your journey.

Ruby

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Nice one Ruby,

As good a refutation of Pascal's wager as I have encountered.

Yeah, the same thought has occurred to me. I was actually quite surprised when the insight came to me. It seemed so "right."

Pascal's wager feels so "wrong" to me. Like I'm still in bondage to sin, or the forces of darkness or whatever.

I guess that is a very contraversial statement but it is the feeling it evokes in me.

[Paladin]

Yup, it sure does feel wrong does't it? I think Louis Mackey finally refuted Pascals wager as being "religion specific" In other words, you would have to believe in a capricious, vengeful, petty god for it to make any sense, and who would agree with that premise?

Peace

Mark

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

This sounds very much like my own experience. It takes time. At least, for me it did.

For me too, it is still taking time. I'm not as far along in my journey as my last post would suggest.

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

A man shared a personal story in a small group discussion that had quite an impact on me. He talked about the way his church responded when he was going through a divorce. The pastor emphasized grace.

He said to the group, "I thought, if this is grace, then I don't want it." Since then, I have taken the same approach to the "love" that my own family and former church insist on imposing on me. If that is love then I don't want it. True love should not hurt so much.

Like having people stand in front of you and pray for you, asking God that he might work miracles in your life and cast out the seed of doubt which the Devil has planted in your heart.

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

All the best on your journey.

Thanks Ruby.

[earl]

OK I just was reading the current edition of Tricycle-it's a journal of Buddhist thought-and in it was an article from some guy re his embracing of Pure Land Buddhism-that's Tariki's "home ground" by the way. Reading that set off all sorts of light bulbs! That tradition postulates that one can be "reborn" into a "pure land" by deeply entrusting in how the work of enlightenment has already been laid by a "being" referred to as Amida-OK Christians & Buddhists what does this remind you of? Allow me to quote some segments from that article which rang my bells:

"...Pure Land founders....taught that we should not recite the nembutso in order to be saved, but rather because we were saved-in other words, not out of fear, but as an expression of gratitude and joy, (it's a recognition of an actuality which has already occurred not a test to become worthy of such)...I believe in the Pure Land, established countless eons ago by Amida Buddha so that deluded beings like myself can be reborn there when they die. Further I believe that I am born now-that at the moment I step beyond my own understanding, and entrust to a power beyond myself, I am 'embraced, never to be foresaken'...Pure Land tradition offers a different answer from most other Buddhist schools, for it begins with the recognition that we are essentially powerless to effect our own salvation. Why? Because our entire being is founded upon ignorance, (my definition of "original sin" and what Tariki and I both were getting at perhaps when speaking of matters of spiritual humility)...the meaning is plain. the price of faith is everything...faith has been given a bad name by the half-believer, by the one who has not yet paid everything for what he believes...half-believers are easy to recognize because they are engaged in the work of trying to believe and not in the work of belief itself. They are seeking some confirmation in the outer world to complete an internal process that remains half-finished within them; thus they are often highly vocal and intolerant of other's points of view...By contrast, those who believe fully are at peace within themselves."

OK, other than the fact that this view of "being saved" accords with my view of what Christ's message was really about, why did this ring my bell? Because it told me that real belief takes one so deeply into one's path that it also effects the letting go that Tariki spoke of. If one believes down to their marrow, there is nothing to prove, nothing to defend, we forget about our "selves." Ultimately perhaps real belief is ultimately the same as letting go. Hmmm? have a good one, earl

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Like having people stand in front of you and pray for you, asking God that he might work miracles in your life and cast out the seed of doubt which the Devil has planted in your heart.

Exactly! Self-righteousness takes many forms. Feel free to ask questions. I am being taught that asking questions and doubts are part and parcel of a lively and active faith. I am beginning to believe it. After all, life means movement, growth, transformation. No movement, transformation, or growth can often mean stagnation.

I've seen this. I've seen virbant and flexible teenagers grow into rigid and proposition-spouting middle-agers. Somewhere along the line they lost their vibrancy and adaptability and enthusiasm, their genuine seeking. They adopt the line of responsibilty and hard-line inflexible religion that must be protected from all tampering at all costs. As though God is not strong enough to defend and take care of himself.

A chaplain at a school where I was studying rebuked me saying, "It sounds like you were testing God." I talked with a female Christian prof about this. She's a somewhat short woman but has a very strong personality. She said, "I like to think I can handle anything students can throw at me. I would think God can do just as much."

It has occurred to me that a faith that cannot stand questioning is not a very good faith. Truth can stand on its own. No amount of questioning can irradicate truth; questioning and testing can only confirm truth's validity to the honest seeker.

I'm trying to think of an analogy. In my part of the world we get a lot of snow each winter and severe cold. People have to carry mits and other accessories that are discarded on a warm sunny noon. Sometimes a mit is accidentally dropped.

I know this because I've seen the mits when the snow melted. The mits don't melt. They don't scream for attention. They just are. Snow storms can cover them. Snowplows can plow them into the bank on the curb where they are entombed in a frozen mass. The mit cannot protest.

When warm weather comes and the spring winds and rains soften the snow and ice and they disappear down the storm drains as so much water, the mits stay behind.

Likewise, truth will not melt and disappear; it quietly remains no matter what violence is done to it. That's one way of looking at it.

Ruby

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Likewise, truth will not melt and disappear; it quietly remains no matter what violence is done to it. That's one way of looking at it.

Ruby

Wonderful !!

flow....

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Exactly! Self-righteousness takes many forms. Feel free to ask questions. I am being taught that asking questions and doubts are part and parcel of a lively and active faith. I am beginning to believe it. After all, life means movement, growth, transformation. No movement, transformation, or growth can often mean stagnation.

I've seen this. I've seen virbant and flexible teenagers grow into rigid and proposition-spouting middle-agers. Somewhere along the line they lost their vibrancy and adaptability and enthusiasm, their genuine seeking. They adopt the line of responsibilty and hard-line inflexible religion that must be protected from all tampering at all costs. As though God is not strong enough to defend and take care of himself.

A chaplain at a school where I was studying rebuked me saying, "It sounds like you were testing God." I talked with a female Christian prof about this. She's a somewhat short woman but has a very strong personality. She said, "I like to think I can handle anything students can throw at me. I would think God can do just as much."

It has occurred to me that a faith that cannot stand questioning is not a very good faith. Truth can stand on its own. No amount of questioning can irradicate truth; questioning and testing can only confirm truth's validity to the honest seeker.

I'm trying to think of an analogy. In my part of the world we get a lot of snow each winter and severe cold. People have to carry mits and other accessories that are discarded on a warm sunny noon. Sometimes a mit is accidentally dropped.

I know this because I've seen the mits when the snow melted. The mits don't melt. They don't scream for attention. They just are. Snow storms can cover them. Snowplows can plow them into the bank on the curb where they are entombed in a frozen mass. The mit cannot protest.

When warm weather comes and the spring winds and rains soften the snow and ice and they disappear down the storm drains as so much water, the mits stay behind.

Likewise, truth will not melt and disappear; it quietly remains no matter what violence is done to it. That's one way of looking at it.

Ruby

Very nice!

luna

[RubySera_Martin]

Flow and Luna, thank you. I can see that it might appear like a beautiful analogy. The problem for me is that these mits are usually so grimy and gross that I'd hate to touch them. Still the analogy does work, I think. Truth is not always beautful and pleasant but it is enduring.

[samabudhi]

Dharmakirti is the accepted master on the subject of valid cognition.

Here're a few links. Heavy stuff though.
http://www.virginia.edu/soasia/newsl...ookReview.html
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductD...atNumber=14817

[neosnoia]

half-believers are easy to recognize because they are engaged in the work of trying to believe and not in the work of belief itself. They are seeking some confirmation in the outer world to complete an internal process that remains half-finished within them;

Very true words. I had to take a leap into trust. Scarey stuff, but definitely worth it. Thinking about bouncing on the trampoline just can't compete with actually bouncing on the trampoline (thanks Rob Bell).

Originally Posted by Earl

If one believes down to their marrow, there is nothing to prove, nothing to defend, we forget about our "selves." Ultimately perhaps real belief is ultimately the same as letting go.

"This is the door to the Palace of No-Where ... " Have you read Finley's commentary on Merton?

[earl]

Is this James Finley? No, haven't read it but am interested in anything by and about Merton. Take care, earl

[moseslmpg]

OK, hold the phone. If belief is a clinging on, then how is faith letting go? You have to have faith in some belief to let go. Can someone explain the logic of this to me, as if it even matters?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

OK, hold the phone. If belief is a clinging on, then how is faith letting go? You have to have faith in some belief to let go. Can someone explain the logic of this to me, as if it even matters?

Belief is an unfinished project--a person will cling to them in out of doubts that the belief is not strong enough or well developed enough to stand by itself.
Faith occurs when a person trusts that the project (belief) is finished, and is strong enough and sufficiently developed to stand on its own.

[moseslmpg]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Belief is an unfinished project--a person will cling to them in out of doubts that the belief is not strong enough or well developed enough to stand by itself.
Faith occurs when a person trusts that the project (belief) is finished, and is strong enough and sufficiently developed to stand on its own.

Thank you very much. I don't know why I didn't see it. Another question arises, that I have been meaning to ask: How do you know what you believe or have faith in?

I, personally, am not very sure of my internal environment at any given time, and just about every belief system out there that doesn't directly conflict with my perceptions and intuition seems valid to me. Basically, I'm a drifter, I just roll from place to place.