knowledge and belief

[flowperson]

You're absolutely right Paladin. I go my habit of starting my statements with, "It is my belief", when I had a job at the executive level of a large university.

I was taught that it was at once the most definitive and yet most ambiguous intro to use when one was introducing ideas that might affect policy. We all forget just how much of our ingrained behavior is instigated by our immersion in the political deceptions of society, and much of that was created for common people beginning with the politics of universities in the middle ages. Of course we all see it now everyday, ad nauseum, whenever we turn on the TV. No escape from this... it seems.

flow....

[earl]

Allow me to speak up a bit For beliefs. While I tend to be a fairly "empirical" guy in that I don't tend to concoct or uncritically buy into many big metaphysical theories that are entirely beyond any inkling of what I can experience, some big ideas do tend to "take hold" on me. We sometimes talk around here like it's a badge of dishonor to admit to having any beliefs, though. Tariki certainly made a good point regarding how we often allow our beliefs to be a defensive shield to protect our hearts & heads from whatever aspect of reality presenting itself to us and so "taking hold" is often a case of digging in our mental, emotional heels to protect a false or incomplete view of self and other. But of course both taking hold and letting go have their important places in Life. In fact, if we did not believe that this religious/spiritual journey no matter how nebulous was important and thereby engage with it/take hold of it, we wouldn't spend our time exploring our chosen paths or time here chatting about it either. I think Cavalier's point about it being not so much what we believe but how we believe is the crux. That links to Tariki's point: what function do our beliefs serve for us? Do they assist us on our journey or are they actually impeding it? Though those questions cannot in themselves suggest whether a particular set of beliefs is "right" in the sense of some sort of grand, metaphysical Truth, they certainly can shed light on how we are "using" our beliefs-sometimes an honest reexamination of those moments adjusts our beliefs and sometimes it adjusts us Those then become the moments we loosen our grasp and let go a little to reengage and take hold of the moment in new ways. Life seems rife from end to end with all sorts in interwoven dualities or polarities or phases -what have you -with taking hold & letting go just 1 example. Is "ultimate" reality "non-dual?" Who knows? (I meant that in the conventional sense just now not the koanic one though guess that perhaps that should sneek into the conversation too ) But I think that we need to be careful not to inadvertently "take hold" of 1 pole while castigating another. We can turn non-belief into a belief of course. Not to worry perhaps 'cause you can't be human and not "hold" beliefs unless you're brain dead. We just need to hold them lightly. Take care, earl

[InLove]

Hi, Peace--

Originally Posted by earl

But I think that we need to be careful not to inadvertently "take hold" of 1 pole while castigating another. We can turn non-belief into a belief of course. Not to worry perhaps 'cause you can't be human and not "hold" beliefs unless you're brain dead. We just need to hold them lightly. Take care, earl

I have been trying to figure out how to say this for a while now, earl. Thanks. I might say "hold them carefully" or "gently". Because of what Tariki pointed out, and because of what lunamoth reported, I have learned that I need to, as you like to say, "take care" when I speak, and try to understand the implications of what I am about to say. I will probably, as a result, use the terms "I trust" or "In my experience" more often now. But I am pretty sure there will be times when nothing but "I believe" will do. Everything has its season.

InPeace,
InLove

[RubySera_Martin]

I very often use the term "I think" and for very good reason. It is quite normal that what I think is not the commonly-held belief. Yet it IS my experience and my conviction. Rather than stating it as an objective truth that everyone must accept or reject, I prefer to say things like I think, I believe, in my opinion....That allows others to keep their own experiences, convictions, beliefs...

Cavalier, to your questions. I identify with your confusion. There is so MUCH conflicting information out there.

Originally posted by Cavalier:

My first question is this, how can we really know anything?
or should we instead, like Socrates, summise that we are only wise when we know that we know nothing?

For me there is no "should" about it. It's a fact. It's reality. I know very little. I may be able to spout a lot of facts and other information but in comparison to what is out there to be known, it's barely a drop in the ocean. I operate on the opinion that all of the cumulative knowledge of humanity over the ages barely scratches the surface of reality. One brief scan on an article about the size of the universe confirms this belief. This universe is far larger than any ancient could begin to think.

All these people believing such different things, most of these people must be wrong, they have to be. OR, we really are like the group of blind men feeling different parts of an elephant in which case we would all be both wrong and right.

I confess that after reading Tariki's post I felt like I got a better view of the true meaning of arrogance than I have ever had. I did not know that people think they are wise just because they have crammed their brains full of information. As several people have suggested, integrating that information with life experience brings about a level of insight and heart knowing that deepens and enriches life. Maybe that's when we begin to realize that we really don't know anything.

I believe on the level of deep conviction that, like you suggest about the blind men and the elephant, what we experience in one little lifetime is but one part of reality. One day when I was deeply seeking to understand about God, it came to me that God is like an octagon with eight sides. Christianity is one expression of those eight sides of God.

The number 8 is sacred in many religions though not in Christianity so far as I know. 7, 3, and 12 are far more prominent in The West e.g. the seven wonders of the world, seven days of the week, the Trinity, we list sets of three items when giving examples, twelve disciples, twelve tribes of Israel, twelve days of Christmas, a dozen, twelve months of the year....

When I suggest in the presence of Christians about Christianity being but one expression of God I often meet with blunt and blatant disagreement however subtly and politely expressed. Some will simply not comment, and after digesting the fact that I said something as blaphemous as all that they will change the subject. It's like bumping up against a stone wall. No, it's more like the thud of bumping against a wall of planks.

In summary, I think it's unknowable what we can know. Live in the moment. Be aware of the details, of colour, line, shape, texture. Carry the big picture of your world in your head at all times. Be prepared to die tomorrow but expect to live forever. How's that for paradoxes of the unknowable

[InLove]

Hi, Peace--

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

In summary, I think it's unknowable what we can know. Live in the moment. Be aware of the details, of colour, line, shape, texture. Carry the big picture of your world in your head at all times. Be prepared to die tomorrow but expect to live forever. How's that for paradoxes of the unknowable

Beautiful words, Ruby.

InPeace,
InLove

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

In summary, I think it's unknowable what we can know. Live in the moment. Be aware of the details, of colour, line, shape, texture. Carry the big picture of your world in your head at all times. Be prepared to die tomorrow but expect to live forever. How's that for paradoxes of the unknowable

You've hit the nail right on the head, Ruby.

Oh... and the number eight is sacred in form. If you lay it on its side, you've got infinity.

flow....

[Ciel]

Blessed are they who are rich in spirit, with love and life to share.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by flowperson

the number eight is sacred in form. If you lay it on its side, you've got infinity.

flow....

In what mythology or system of symbols would that be? It's not part of my inherited background so I know it's not a universal symbol for infinity.

Also, why would infinity be considered sacred?

This is not a challenge to your statement. It's just my curiosity getting the best of me. Or, put another way, I see it as an opportunity to learn something new....

I am reminded of a saying I learned as a child: Curiosity killed the cat.

I'm trying to figure out what type of people and for what purpose that would be a considered a bit of wisdom woth passing to posterity??? That's off-topic.

Ruby

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

When I suggest in the presence of Christians about Christianity being but one expression of God I often meet with blunt and blatant disagreement however subtly and politely expressed. Some will simply not comment, and after digesting the fact that I said something as blaphemous as all that they will change the subject. It's like bumping up against a stone wall. No, it's more like the thud of bumping against a wall of planks.

I was born into a family and community of Christians very much like those you refer to. They are people who believe that they know something. Using Socrates we might say that these people are therefore not wise. Is there a problem in saying this though? I say "Is" because I really do not know. If we say that we know nothing, how can we know that they are wrong?

What if these people, or at least some of them, really do know something that we don't? What if there is no octagon? What if we are blind men feeling round in the darkness but these people, as they would profess, have been given the gift of sight by the Holy Spirit?

[jiii]

originally posted by cavalier

If we say that we know nothing, how can we know that they are wrong?

Good point. Though, if where we've gotten so far was "hard to put into words", then this has the potential to take it entirely beyond description. LOL...I suppose "intuition" is an irrational argument.

[RubySera_Martin]

You sound so much like me, Cavalier. I can only tell you what works for me.

Originally Posted by cavalier

I was born into a family and community of Christians very much like those you refer to. They are people who believe that they know something. Using Socrates we might say that these people are therefore not wise. Is there a problem in saying this though? I say "Is" because I really do not know. If we say that we know nothing, how can we know that they are wrong?

From the perspective of true and false, I don't have an answer. From the perspective of human relationships, no we can't say that. My criteria is cause and effect and what is really important to me. It is more important to me to maintain good relationships with the people around me than to alienate them with a fact of life they are at this point incapable or unwilling of facing. In terms of cause and effect, telling people they are not as wise as they think because Socrates said such and such will probably cause alienation.

What if these people, or at least some of them, really do know something that we don't? What if there is no octagon? What if we are blind men feeling round in the darkness but these people, as they would profess, have been given the gift of sight by the Holy Spirit?

All legitimate questions. I think the deeper question you are asking is: Is God real or not and what are the implications?

Again, I can only share what works for me. Whether or not God exists is for me unknowable. I have also talked to some of the most educated Christians around and they say we cannot prove or disprove God's existence.

This leaves me alone in the universe with the question: Who is right--the people who say to follow your heart and use your talents, or the people who say I will go to hell for disobeying the church?

I will try to explain where I am at now. The Bible says what the fruits of the Spirit are--love, joy, peace, etc. The Love Chapter in 1 Cor. 13 is a wonderful example. By being true to myself at all costs, I find myself turning into a person for whom these things come fairly naturally.

I don't feel on top of the world every minute of every day because life is not that way. Nor do I like all the people I encounter in life. But there is a peace deep down that was not there earlier in my life. It came as a result of my I commitment to be true to myself at all costs. I can be fair and respectful of the people I don't like, and when heavy times come upon me I can live in the confidence that "this too will pass."

At this point it is not important to me whether or not God exists. I feel a deep peace and assurance that if God does exist, my way of living is pleasing to him. I believe God, if God exists, is fair and loving like a parent who shows respect and unconditional love for his children. Such a God will respect the genuine attempt at living fully and joyfully by being true to myself.

If there is no God, it is still the best way for me to live. If there is no afterlife, at least I enjoyed the one life I had. If there is an afterlife, like I said, I believe God will accept me and all others.

In this way I stick with what I know. It requires considerable trust and faith to live this way. Truth and faith that the unknowable will not consume me and vent its rage on me, but is loving and fair.

Ruby

[Paladin]

Nice one Ruby,

As good a refutation of Pascal's wager as I have encountered. Your way of thinking is refreshing!

Peace

Mark

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

telling people they are not as wise as they think because Socrates said such and such will probably cause alienation.

I didn't mean I would think about actually saying this to someone. My thoughts were more along the lines of how we should think about these kinds of beliefs.

Much more importantly,

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I will try to explain where I am at now. The Bible says what the fruits of the Spirit are--love, joy, peace, etc. The Love Chapter in 1 Cor. 13 is a wonderful example. By being true to myself at all costs, I find myself turning into a person for whom these things come fairly naturally.

I don't feel on top of the world every minute of every day because life is not that way. Nor do I like all the people I encounter in life. But there is a peace deep down that was not there earlier in my life. It came as a result of my I commitment to be true to myself at all costs. I can be fair and respectful of the people I don't like, and when heavy times come upon me I can live in the confidence that "this too will pass."

At this point it is not important to me whether or not God exists. I feel a deep peace and assurance that if God does exist, my way of living is pleasing to him. I believe God, if God exists, is fair and loving like a parent who shows respect and unconditional love for his children. Such a God will respect the genuine attempt at living fully and joyfully by being true to myself.

Thoughts like this have been wandering through my head for some time now.

It's difficult to let go of indoctrination but I have had a liberating realisation, that if God is the way some people say he is, then come what may I would choose not to worship him.

I now think what I think, and ask God to forgive any erroneous views, any God worth praying to will answer my prayer.

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

In what mythology or system of symbols would that be? It's not part of my inherited background so I know it's not a universal symbol for infinity.

Also, why would infinity be considered sacred?

This is not a challenge to your statement. It's just my curiosity getting the best of me. Or, put another way, I see it as an opportunity to learn something new....

I am reminded of a saying I learned as a child: Curiosity killed the cat.

I'm trying to figure out what type of people and for what purpose that would be a considered a bit of wisdom woth passing to posterity??? That's off-topic.

Ruby

Hi Ruby:

The infinity symbol, or an eight symbol on its side, is a widely used symbol in mathematics having to do with universal concepts that are explored and analyzed in Astrophysics, Astronomy, Complex Systems Studies, and Cosmology.

I think of it as sacred because it signifies the realm of G-d, since G-d is infinite in nature, but I knew lots of scientists that didn't think of infinity in this way.

Somebody or something is sending you subliminal messages having to do with the infinite in your dreams maybe ?

flow....

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hi Ruby:

The infinity symbol, or an eight symbol on its side, is a widely used symbol in mathematics having to do with universal concepts that are explored and analyzed in Astrophysics, Astronomy, Complex Systems Studies, and Cosmology.

Okay, that explains things! People sometimes use the symbol or talk about it and I, who am terrible at elementary math, haven't a clue what they're talking about. It would translate rather easily into the fish symbol of Christianity, I would think. Just stretch out the circles.

I think of it as sacred because it signifies the realm of G-d, since G-d is infinite in nature, but I knew lots of scientists that didn't think of infinity in this way.

It does explain why the infinity sign would be sacred for you and possibly other religions.