Keys to the Kingdom

[wil]

A discussion of the requirements for entering Heaven and status there in...

All Abrahamic and all denominations/sects/divisions of each and every religion therin are encouraged to participate.

This stemmed from another thread....

On the flip side MW where does Islam fall in this regard? I know I've read that there is the thought that we are all Muslim and don't know it and Islam predates Mohamed (pbuh), but without knowing and following the five pillars...what is the status of an individual in the afterlife?

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Wil

I am so pleased and happy you asked this question, thankyou. As you may have worked out by now I am a 'moderate' Muslim, although I prefer to call myself orthodox, as I stay as close as possible to the teaching of the Quran.

Here is one of my favourite verses of the Quran (sorry about the cut and paste):

002.062YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Now look at Yusufali and Pickthal's comments in brackets - this is their interpretation, not the word of G-d. Shakir has translated this verse without giving comment and this is the word of G-d handed to mankind in the Quran. Yusufali negates Jews and Christians by inserting (in the Quran) and Pickthal negates Jews and Christians by inserting (revealed unto thee, Muhammad). However, G-d has clearly stated who has the opportunity to go to heaven "WHOEVER believes in G-d, the Day of Judgement and does good".

The Quran also states very clearly, four times, that "there is no compulsion in religion". Muslim men can marry Jewish and Christian women and there is no requirement for the women to change religion and they are permitted to worship Allah acording to their own faith. Muslim women cannot marry outside the faith because our children take the religion of the father.

Also look at the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), he allowed Jews and Christians to live in peace, with no demands on them to change their relgion. People often talk of the taxes levied against non-Muslims but we pay taxes to the country/state we live in even today. 10 years ago I lived in Bavaria and 5% of my wage was taken at source for the Catholic Church - I had no choice. So this argument holds no water with me.

Also, the Quran teaches us that G-d has sent a messenger to each nation (Muslims believe there has been well over 100,000 Prophets (pbut) and Mohammad was the final Prophet). Is it possible that G-d would be so merciful and send every nation/tribe/language/colour/creed/gender, etc a Prophet, yet then decide "forget that lot and just do this or no heaven?" I doubt that very much - but only my personal view.

Finally, before I bore you to sleep. My husband (a born Muslim) has been taught that even a very sinful Muslim will be punished then brought to heaven. Whereas, a good pious nonMuslim is going straight to hell for eternity (with the exception of all children who die, who go straight to heaven without judgement). So the question I always ask my husband is "what are the first words of the Quran?". They are:

Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi

which means:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.


So a personal message to everyone, of any religion, who says "only our gang can go to heaven"............

Thank you Wil, I needed that.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Sorry, forgot to include this verse of the Quran, which when read with surrounding verses (which state the Torah given for the Jews and the Bible given for the Christians), states very clearly that we are all to follow our given paths and on the Day of Judgement only G-d will judge between us:

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (5:48)

Sorry call me a big thicky if you like but I can't see any "you all must be x,y or z" in that verse.

Salaam

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Whereas, a good pious nonMuslim is going straight to hell for eternity (with the exception of all children who die, who go straight to heaven without judgement).

Is there a demarcation point from child to adult?

(sorry if I don't meet wil's criteria for engagement here but it just seemed like an obvious question....well to me)

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Shakir has translated this verse without giving comment and this is the word of G-d handed to mankind in the Quran. However, G-d has clearly stated who has the opportunity to go to heaven "WHOEVER believes in G-d, the Day of Judgement and does good".

The Quran also states very clearly, four times, that "there is no compulsion in religion".

There may be no compulsion in religion but this quite definitely seems to be leaving a lot of people going to hell doesn't it? Richard Dawkins won't be alone will he?

Salaam,

s.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

...
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (5:48).

So do you see this as expanding to other non Abrahamic religions as well? I was contemplating putting this in Comparative, maybe I should've...which leads to

Originally Posted by Snoopy

(sorry if I don't meet wil's criteria for engagement here but it just seemed like an obvious question....well to me)

yeah, my bad.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Is there a demarcation point from child to adult?

(sorry if I don't meet wil's criteria for engagement here but it just seemed like an obvious question....well to me)

s.

Hi Snoopy,

I believe the part you quoted may take her last paragraph and point out of context. She was merely expressing her husbands view and then pointed out that the first words of the Quran attribute the word Merciful to Allah. This, she always asks of her husband when he says as she quoted. Correct me if I am in error but I do not believe that Muslimwoman shares the belief that a good pious non-muslim is going straight to hell for eternity.

Love and Peace,
JM

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Correct me if I am in error but I do not believe that Muslimwoman shares the belief that a good pious non-muslim is going straight to hell for eternity.
Love and Peace,
JM

<<phew>>

(not that I can say I'm good or pious; but there's always hope!)

s.

[farhan]

requirements for entering Heaven

The minimum requirements for entering heaven are described in 2:62 . Although the exact concept of God is described in 112.

Say! He is God, The one
God, the self sufficient
Begets not, nor is begotten
And there is none comparable to The One.

Islam is very strict about this standard. This is the core of everything what Islam stands for. Accepting this means the person will eventually go to heaven .

status there in

We are told that the last person to enter heaven will have things equal to 10 times this planet. Nobody knows about the specfic details .

there is the thought that we are all Muslim and don't know it and Islam predates Mohamed (pbuh),

The world Islam means "submitting one's will to God". And all prophets before Muhammad (pbuh) brought this same message to humanity . So technically we are all born muslims . And every body who followed the prophet of his time was a muslim .Now there is a little difference between Deen & Sharia. Deen always remains the same . Sharia (law) might change a little bit from prophet to prophet . Its not that God changes his mind, but different people have different circumstances in which they live, and a law that was good for one nation living in a particular place & time , might not be equally good for another nation living in another time frame or on another continent .

But after the final messenger, this final law is for everybody. God actually called it "The culmination of blessings on mankind"

This day have I perfected for you your religion and fulfilled My favor unto you, and I have chosen Islam for you as your religion (5:3).

but without knowing and following the five pillars...what is the status of an individual in the afterlife?

This is a big question . When scholars were faced with this, then according to this verse (& others) they came up with a concept, called ahl al-fatrah.

2:286. Allah burdens not a person beyond his scope. He gets reward for that (good) which he has earned, and he is punished for that (evil) which he has earned.

The concept is applied to people who lived in times or places where the message of Islam didnt reach.

IslamonLine.net

IslamonLine.net

There may be no compulsion in religion but this quite definitely seems to be leaving a lot of people going to hell doesn't it? Richard Dawkins won't be alone will he?

Three small beliefs, I dont think believing in them is that hard . As for Mr. Dawkins, well.... not believing in God is one thing , refuting his existence is a totally different level . Lets say one day you started your computer , & you heard it telling other computers,"I wont get started, I am my own boss, there is no such thing as Snoopy, stupid computers believe in Snoopy. Its just bad programming that makes them believe that......... So what are you going to do with that machine?

Salam

[post-abrahamic]

I notice that there is no mention of why non-Abrahamics would be barred from heaven. If an atheist or a Wiccan lives a good life why would God forbid entry to heaven?

Seems to me that any religion that cannot distinguish between good and bad people regardless of religious affiliation lacks the wisdom to give moral advice.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Is there a demarcation point from child to adult?

(sorry if I don't meet wil's criteria for engagement here but it just seemed like an obvious question....well to me)

s.

It is a great question Snoopy and of course being Islam there is more than one answer.

The age of 7 is the age given to us for beginning teaching the Quran, so some extreme views say this is the age. (I can't see how an 8 year old could be considered competant to make moral judgements).

Many say that this is the age of puberty, as that is the natural biological time of change from child to adult and this is at the end of puberty. (I like this one).

There is something (can't remember if it is in the Quran or the Sunnah) that states you do not become religiously responsible until age 40. (think the ones that follow this view have their fingers crossed they are going to get with rather a lot ). Personally I think the meaning of this leans more toward the age one is competant to give religious rulings?

As for who is going to hell, yes there will be many, including Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindu's....need I go on? One thing I can offer no comfort for is that a belief in the One True G-d is a requirement. Does that mean that you have to 'see' G-d the way I do - doubtful. Idolatry is forbidden and for this many will go to hell, including some Muslims and anyone that places a partner with G-d. One thing I think we must all keep in mind is that G-d knows what is in our heart and He will judge us, we cannot judge each other. So, only a guess, but if G-d see's into your heart and knows you believed in him (in whatever form that means to you - a puff of smoke, a huge electric charge, a chap on a throne, etc), tried to do good and did not believe in multiple gods then He will judge us accordingly. Let us be honest no person that has ever lived, other than the Prophets (pbut), has any real concept of what G-d is, so we are all just groping in the dark and guessing.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

So do you see this as expanding to other non Abrahamic religions as well?

Sorry, someone is going to have to tell me how to quote more than one person in a reply, as I have to answer individually - sorry

Well each to their own view but you can be sure of one thing Wil, I have no intention of arguing with G-d, who said:

"WHOEVER believes in G-d, the Day of Judgement and does good"

I am a mere human, I cannot and will not even attempt to judge my fellow man. G-d knows what He meant by this and it is to Him that we shall all answer.

As an aside, one of the reasons I hold my views and am less judgemental is because everyday I remember that on the Day of Judgement I will have to answer for my every deed. How could I possibly stand before G-d Himself and say "I judged and therefore treated this person according to their stated religion or skin colour or wealth or gender or.........". Try it, if you truly think about it everyday it is a very humbling experience.

I forgot to mention in my answer to your original post Wil, re the pillars of Islam, these are a requirement for Muslims. However, there is of course the issue of who/what constitues a Muslim.

[Muslimwoman]

I think we need to go outside our taught perceptions here and look at what the Quran really says about the Muslim view of this issue. We always associate Islam with the religion of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and Muslims with the followers of the Islam of Mohammad but are wrong to do so, as shown in the Quran:

Abraham was indeed an exemplary vanguard in his submission to God, a monotheist who never worshiped idols. Because he was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16:120-123)

Is the Quran telling Mohammad to be a Jew? No, he is being told to follow the religion of Abraham (pbuh) which was Islam. Islam literally means "Submission" to G-d. So a Muslim is anyone who has "submitted" to G-d. So let us look at another verse:

And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.(3:85)

This is the translation by Shakir. Now replace the word Islam with it's translation into english and we get Pickthals translation:

And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.(3:85)

I have read so many Muslim opinions that quote this verse time after time as proof, from G-d, that only our modern meaning of a Muslim, following our Islam, can go to heaven. So why does G-d tell us this?:

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. And if ye do catch them out, catch them out no worse than they catch you out: But if ye show patience, that is indeed the best (course) for those who are patient. (16:125-126)

One might also ask why the Sunnah teaches us that a prostitute was allowed into heaven. Did she become a Muslim and repent? No. She went down a well to get water and when she came up she saw a dog dying of thirst, so she went back down the well and brought water in her shoe for the dog. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) teaches us that for this good deed Allah allowed the woman to enter heaven.

A case in point (taken from an Islamic site):

What about non-Muslims do they go to heaven?
Allah only accepts Islam. He says in the Koran: "Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam it won't be accepted of him, and he will be one of the loosers in the hereafter". I would rather loose anywhere, but not loose in the hereafter. This is because Hellfire is eternal. It never ends, and we never die when we go there, if we go there.

What about someone who never heard of Islam?

Allah is the most just. Don't even think that we can be nicer than Allah. Allah is the Most Just


Now try again, replace the word Islam with the word submission....

May I quote another wonderful Prophet....."Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by post-abrahamic

I notice that there is no mention of why non-Abrahamics would be barred from heaven. If an atheist or a Wiccan lives a good life why would God forbid entry to heaven?

Does that answer your question?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by farhan

The world Islam means "submitting one's will to God". And all prophets before Muhammad (pbuh) brought this same message to humanity

as salaam aleykum farhan

Something that puzzles me is that Arabic simply does not translate well into other languages and indeed some words simply do not translate at all. Allah knows everything, so He knows this and yet the Quran was revealed in Arabic. Have you heard or read anything which discusses this?

Also, please can you tell me your opinion of when a person is considered to "have received the message of Islam"? For me this was at my first reading of the Quran and even before I had finished I decided to convert. For example, would you consider the nonMuslims on this site to have received the message?

Loved your comment about 3 small things, really it is not much for Allah to ask of us.

Salaam