Keys to the Kingdom

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

ru kiddin? surely you don't imagine I wouldn't ask...(if'n that is what is required) I've been known to convert non huggers all over!

Do you speak arabic or you need me to send you a translation?

I am a reformed hugger, although InLove would get a damned good hugging.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Do you speak arabic or you need me to send you a translation?

I am a reformed hugger, although InLove would get a damned good hugging.

Hugs require no language.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

Hugs require no language.

Oh you are so right, neither does laughter.

[bob x]

"So either we have to apply your dress code, forget our faith and change our manner of speaking in order to be accepted by you or cause repulsion?"
But you WANT me to be repelled, don't you? I would ordinarily wish to exchange smiles and casual conversation with people that I meet, but you withhold your smile and want me to put a lid on it. OK, fine: I won't treat you as I would treat a normal human being. That's what you want, that's what you get.
"The fact that I choose not to do that to Flow or 17th or Wil is by virtue of their gender, that is not 'fear' of their gender but respect for my faith"
I used to think the only problem with Arab men was that they needed to masturbate more, but now I see that what they really need are some opportunities for friendly flirtations and casual hugs.
"I still cannot fathom how anyone can judge people simply on their choice of dress."
As I keep telling you, it is not the dress itself (though I do find it ugly), but the attitude it conveys, that ordinary human interactions are forbidden. I allow you that choice (if you think I would favor laws, like some place in Europe, that forbid such dress, you are mistaken) but you want more, to be "respected" for it: no, I don't respect it.

"Yes and it all belonged to the Romans before that, so I feel sure they left some rather unsavoury practices too."
Not veiling, or honor killing: those were Islamic imports. Africa from Carthage (in modern Tunisia) to "Mauretania" (modern Morocco, not modern Mauretania) was one of the most thoroughly Romanized areas of the Empire (unlike Egypt, which was always unhappy under Roman rule) with arenas, theaters, and public baths in all the towns. The notion that women needed to hide their bodies, and should be punished by their families for failure to do so, was no part of the culture.
"Female circumcision in Egypt goes back to, the experts believe, Pharonic times (est 5000 years ago)."
I would like to see sources on that: my understanding was that Arabia got it from Ethiopia (ultimately from central Africa), and Egypt and North Africa took it up only after the Muslim conquest. (I could of course be mistaken, would not be the first time).

[bob x]

So, are we done here? Perhaps we should stick to other topics in the future, since we aren't likely to get anywhere here.

Last Saturday I got a friendly hug from a married woman (with her friendly husband right by) after playing cards all evening, and Sunday I went to a concert with two couples (dating, neither likely to be married anytime; whether either couple has slept together would be none of my freaking business but I would tend to doubt it) and got a hug from one of the girls and one of the guys (if I were tempted to go to bed with either of them, it would be with the guy-- but he is not that way at all). I do not typically get three hugs in one weekend, nor expect that, but I consider that a big part of what God meant when He created the world, and said "It is very good."

You, on the other hand, call yourself a "reformed" hugger, as if you should feel ashamed of ever having found joy in human warmth, and while I can certainly understand you saying that you cannot hug Wil unless your husband was OK with it, you go on to indicate he would surely hit Wil for even suggesting such a thing. Not that such a quick resort to violence is unique to the Muslim world, but elsewhere it would be considered a negative. How much further apart could the two of us be? What I call God you call the devil, and vice versa.

If you want the last word on this thread, you may take it.

[Muslimwoman]

History of Female Circumcision

Re the hugging thing, I do wonder how many affairs have started by those little touches, friendly hugs, innocent flirting? I choose a different life and respect that you choose that one.

[wil]

Originally Posted by bob x

I do not typically get three hugs in one weekend, nor expect that, but I consider that a big part of what God meant when He created the world, and said "It is very good."

Three a day for maintenance seven for growth.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Re the hugging thing, I do wonder how many affairs have started by those little touches, friendly hugs, innocent flirting? I choose a different life and respect that you choose that one.

I'd say many, but an overall insignificant percentage when compared to the hugging and flirting going on.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

I'd say many, but an overall insignificant percentage when compared to the hugging and flirting going on.

You are probably right Wil, I just choose to avoid the possibility.

[bob x]

Thanks for the link on female "circumcision" (thanks for continuing to converse at all, actually, but especially to actually answer my question).
On the one hand, the data there doesn't actually support the claim that it traces to Pharaonic Egypt: the ancient report is from 3rd century BC (post-Pharaonic) and at that time only in the peripheral tribes on the Red Sea shore, not the Nile Valley where 99% of the population was (my half-remembered info that Ethiopia is where it spread out from would seem to fit with this). I would be interested to know when and how it spread to the heartland of Egypt (your source just abruptly jumps forward 17 centuries!), but:
On the other hand, the map shows the practice as absent in the formerly-very-Romanized stretch of North Africa that I mentioned. I had not known that the practice was absent precisely there, but now that I've been shown that, it makes sense: given this data, since Islam spread to Egypt and to the Maghreb nearly simultaneously (I would have to look it up, but I think the time-lag was at most a couple decades), I must concede to you the central point at issue, that early Islam clearly cannot have been the driving force, rather, pre-existing cultural inclinations must have played a more significant role. (That is, Egypt and the Maghreb are a test case, both receiving early Islam but differing in pre-Islamic cultural heritage-- different outcomes; Egypt and Ethiopia are a test case, one with Islam one without, but sharing a lot of cultural heritage-- same outcomes; conclusion, Islam isn't the factor, culture is.)

On "affairs", those can also start because a wife wants escape from a jealously possessive husband who threatens to beat up any man who tries to be friendly to her: this I have seen. Perhaps, in your culture, where that kind of possessiveness is taken for granted, and more-or-less-cheerfully submitted to, this doesn't happen. Even if it "works" in that sense, I would still say the trade-off is sad, indeed downright unGodly-- but, as you are now doubt thinking right now, who asked my opinion?
You say you "respect" my choice not to live in such a way, and want the same "respect": this is another example of the communications barrier between us. There is little in your manner to me that I would call "respect": when I find you unclear and mistake your meaning, you get snappish and accuse me of intentionally and maliciously misunderstanding; while on the other side, if you mistake me you will then pay no attention to multiply repeated clarifications from me. Your attitude is what I would call "disdain": obviously, since you are perfectly capable of being pleasant to other people, it is a reaction to the disdain I express (and do not pretend not to feel) about your culture. But maybe you are just using the word "respect" in a weaker sense: that you would not *interfere* with my choice to live as I do, regardless of your low opinion of that. If that is all you mean by wanting "respect" in turn, well then, as I say I would oppose laws that would forbid your choice of dress (with some exceptions where facial visibility is crucial, as in driver's license and other ID photos, and on the witness stand, to cite two recent controversial cases). What perturbed me to begin with about the choice of the "veil" as symbol is that you are not just one individual woman making an idiosyncratic choice of costume; rather the veil stands for a cultural system which is aggressively trying to spread itself (I would not react the same way to a woman, or man, in Amish "Plain" dress, and would never think to be so rude tell one of them I found it ugly even if it struck me as really awful-- because the Amish do not proselytize, and go to great lengths to be non-threatening to their neighbors, even avoiding self-defense). The flip side, of course, is that Muslims would not feel the need to be so hostile to the United States and our ways, if the US were not so pushy, both militarily and culturally, on other peoples.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I know. I'm still waited to be offered some Turkish Delight.

s.

Turkish Delight, Snoopy?
{We miss you!}

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Egypt and Ethiopia are a test case, one with Islam one without, but sharing a lot of cultural heritage-- same outcomes; conclusion, Islam isn't the factor, culture is.

Hi Bob

I did a whole thread about female circumcision (I think in the lounge of all places) but it had some links to very informative articles. I agree the practice probably began in Africa (think I said that in an earlier post on this thread) but I am pleased you can accept now it is a cultural practice. However, that does not excuse the Muslim scholars that support it and say it is an Islamic practice.

Originally Posted by bob x

On "affairs", those can also start because a wife wants escape from a jealously possessive husband who threatens to beat up any man who tries to be friendly to her: this I have seen.

I accept that affairs can start for a million reasons, it is a human weakness. Yes a controlling husband could lead to a wife wanting to have an affair. In Egypt they tend not to happen, not because the people are so pious but because they are terrified of what the neighbours might say. Other than men living on one contintent and women on another, you cannot eradicate adultery. All I was trying to say was that by not taking that first small step, it can stop you from taking a big one. Well, it works for me.

Originally Posted by bob x

Even if it "works" in that sense, I would still say the trade-off is sad, indeed downright unGodly-- but, as you are now doubt thinking right now, who asked my opinion?

I sometimes find it sad too, because of the extent it is taken to. I love my father in law, yet I am not allowed to hug him. Sometimes I rebel and kiss him on the cheek, he goes completely rigid and doesn't know where to look. Yet when we walk in the street together he always makes me hold his arm (the idea being this is for my safety so I do not fall but we both know he just enjoys human contact).

If I am truthful with you I think the perfect lifestyle would be somewhere in the middle of our cultures (western and Muslim). One is too free and one is too rigid - nowhere is perfect.

Originally Posted by bob x

when I find you unclear and mistake your meaning, you get snappish and accuse me of intentionally and maliciously misunderstanding;

You really can't expect to say such things as 'lump in a bag' and not get a snippy reaction. I love posting on CR but the last couple of weeks I appear to have been bashed from all sides (Muslim and non Muslim) but that is no excuse for being snippy with strangers, so I apolgise for my snippyness.

Originally Posted by bob x

But maybe you are just using the word "respect" in a weaker sense: that you would not *interfere* with my choice to live as I do, regardless of your low opinion of that.

Acceptance of choice is perhaps the right terminology.

Originally Posted by bob x

(with some exceptions where facial visibility is crucial, as in driver's license and other ID photos, and on the witness stand, to cite two recent controversial cases).

For identification purposes I agree with you completely, what is the point of a passport with a photo of a piece of black cloth? As long as women that wear the veil are allowed to request a female to check their physical identity against their documents. As for the witness stand, I think a compromise is called for. The court should be cleared of all non essential personnel (including clerks), the witness should have a member of their family with them and then remove their veil. In court cases facial expression is often very telling.

Originally Posted by bob x

What perturbed me to begin with about the choice of the "veil" as symbol is that you are not just one individual woman making an idiosyncratic choice of costume;

I am just one woman making a choice of dress. When I voice fundamentalist ideas then you may assume that is my mindset. When I come on the net and call for jihad or stoning, then you can make judgements about my thinking.

Originally Posted by bob x

The flip side, of course, is that Muslims would not feel the need to be so hostile to the United States and our ways, if the US were not so pushy, both militarily and culturally, on other peoples.

Thank you, I am pleased you can see there are two sides to every story.

[bob x]

"that does not excuse the Muslim scholars that support it and say it is an Islamic practice."
The whole structure of Islam, basing morality on "Submit to what you are told" instead of humanitarian principles, makes it more difficult for Muslim societies to root out inherited barbarities from the past. Christianity had some ugly inherited barbarities (slavery, genocidal warfare, burning people alive...) and in my view still does, but at least has scriptural warrant for re-evaluating the morality of practices based on what they do to people.

"I love my father in law, yet I am not allowed to hug him. Sometimes I rebel and kiss him on the cheek, he goes completely rigid and doesn't know where to look"
I'm sorry, but the more you explain the Muslim culture, the sicker it sounds.

"If I am truthful with you I think the perfect lifestyle would be somewhere in the middle of our cultures (western and Muslim). "
I can get as annoyed with some aspects of our culture (say, a commercial advertisement that relies on a sniggering, adolescent kind of sexual reference) as anybody, but I'm sorry, there is nothing in Muslim culture I would want to see imported.

"You really can't expect to say such things as 'lump in a bag' and not get a snippy reaction. "
Your reaction to that particular phrasing, which I promise not to repeat, was not one of the cases I was complaining of-- but, if you ask me why I find the veil repugnant, then, I am going to tell you. The context was your claim that it makes you *more* of a "person" to obliterate your human features, a position I continue to find absurd.

"I apolgise for my snippyness."
Don't worry about it; obviously this is very personal for you. I apologize for anything that has made you feel hurt. It is because there is such a wide chasm between us that the attempt to have dialogue is useful.

"As long as women that wear the veil are allowed to request a female to check their physical identity against their documents. "
You are not thinking things through. When a policeman (police are not 100% "men" but the probability is high) pulls a driver over, he may have no partner with him (if on a motorcycle, especially) or at most will have one (probably also male). She could insist on being taken down to the station, but would have to be frisked for weapons in such a case; cops die in traffic stops, often, and concealment is precisely what they have to be concerned about. Someone so "pious" that she cannot understand that drivers are not entitled to be concealed should just, like Saudi women, not drive. Highly religious Muslims are especially distrusted in the US right now, for excellent reasons of which you are aware.

"The court should be cleared of all non essential personnel (including clerks), the witness should have a member of their family with them and then remove their veil."
No way. The public right to observe the courts is fundamental. You are asking for very special privilege.

"I am just one woman making a choice of dress. "
No, you're not, anymore than a man in a uniform is just "one man making a choice of dress". You may not (thank God!) buy into the whole Wahhabi package, but the veil does stand for affiliation with Islamic culture, and the version of the culture as you explain it is, if not as repugnant as Wahhabiism, still a concern.

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Bob

Forgive me but I am going to bow out of this discussion, my brain really can't take any more critisism at the moment. I accept that you see my life as absurd and it is your right to feel that way. Must get on, after my husband finishes beating me I have cafe's to blow up.

I hope you enjoy your time on CR.

Salaam
Sally

[wil]

Namaste Bobx

Can you tell me where you have gleaned all your facts and information regarding the Muslim world. Have you lived in a Muslim country? Have you spent time in a Mosque discussing the subjects you pontificate on with an Imam? Do you have a friend that wears Muslim garb and has reported this abuse to you?

I ask because I knew two people quite closely. One spent months in a Japanese POW camp in a hole and came out so malnourished he is legally blind. The other was in the service during the Korean War era, he never left stateside. One referred to Asians as gooks and slopes, the other with an amazing respect and love.

I ask because I have a family full of bigots and racists who base all their prejudices on the thoughts of others. This isn't my nuclear family, my mother and father moved away from them when we were toddlers as they could not take that side of their parents, brothers and sisters, and refused to raise us in that environment. Now not all my cousins have held onto those backward notions...but 90% have.

I ask because so often those that are so vehement and caustic have no personal contacts or limited personal contacts to base their viewpoint on.

I am sure that is not the case with you....

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Turkish Delight, Snoopy?
{We miss you!}

OOOOHHHHHHH thanks!
don't mind if I do SG....

have some yourself...

s.