Keys to the Kingdom

[JosephM]

Hi Muslimwoman,

Thanks for the interesting links concerning veiling in your post above. I must admit that in the past when I saw a woman veiled it drew my attention and actually led more to me staring at her than if she had not worn a veil. I guess this is because it stands out here in the US as different than norm. By the way, is your avatar a picture of you? If so you are even more beautiful covered as it leaves one with a mysterious aspect in a way. Anyway, enough of my chit-chat and thanks again.

Love and Peace,
JM

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Thanks for the interesting links concerning veiling in your post above. I must admit that in the past when I saw a woman veiled it drew my attention and actually led more to me staring at her than if she had not worn a veil. I guess this is because it stands out here in the US as different than norm. By the way, is your avatar a picture of you? If so you are even more beautiful covered as it leaves one with a mysterious aspect in a way. Anyway, enough of my chit-chat and thanks again.

Thank you for your comments Joseph. No the picture is not me, it is an avatar created by 17th for me.

Veiling is an interesting issue, I have discussed on another thread my feelings that at times it creates an attractive mystique that is actually what it is designed not to do. Also many young women choose the veil and then put an inch of black eye makeup on, which again is going completely against the point of veiling. For some young women this is exactly why they are choosing to wear the veil, because some men are attracted to the mystery. I imagine some are very disappointed when they finally get to see what is underneath lol

Salaam
MW

[bob x]

"Who said I reject the entire Islamic legal tradition?"
What you said was, "What you are talking about are areas under Sharia law - which I in no way support." You did not say you support "good" Sharia law as opposed to "bad" Sharia law: you said you "in no way" support Sharia law at all. Evidently that is not what you meant, but I get tired of being rebuked for taking such strong signals as "no way" to mean what they say.

On "honor killings" in India: the name is the same, but the practice is not what we find in Muslim countries.
"Rani and Jasveer both were from different castes, with Jasveer's killers belonging to Rani's caste.
"They cut off his hands and legs and then killed him for "daring" to marry one of "their" women," recounts Rani.
In another instance, a woman from Uttar Pradesh who belonged to a caste of barbers -- considered by traditional Hindu society as one of the lower castes --was repeatedly raped and finally killed by a group of higher caste Yadav men.
Her crime? Her son had married a girl from the socially and economically more prosperous Yadav caste."
What we find, uniquely in Muslim countries, is the murder of girls by their own family members, and this is what I understood the term "honor killings" to refer to (there was a recent book on the topic by a Jordanian woman who had survived being soaked in gasoline and set alight by her brother). I am interested to learn of the similar phenomenon in India, but it does not relate to the "presumption of female criminality" attitude found in so many Muslim countries.

"Can you name me a large society where men and women's beauty is considered equal?"
This attitude I find very strange. Of course males and females have different looks, but you do not actually find males beautiful? And do not think anyone else does either?

"I do not regard every human to human interaction as sexual in nature but I am aware that some interactions are sexual in nature and it is those interactions I wish to avoid."
By avoiding practically all interactions? That is what "I am aware that some men just want one thing, so I choose to avoid finding out which ones are which. " sounds like.

"So are you now saying that men need to interact with strange women and look at them in order not to be frustrated or angry?"
Interacting with strangers as human beings to human beings is necessary to society. Arab males, apparently, hardly ever get to interact normally with females, so it is no wonder they are bad at it. They have to fill in the blanks with fantasizing, which makes the sexual obsessions much worse.

"Now you are just being offensive. Even with the veil I am still a person, I have views and feelings, I am not reduced to a 'lump in a bag'."
But you do not let yourself be seen as a person, only as a lump in a bag: naturally you will be treated that way, when you have chosen to present yourself that way.

InLove: "What people in cowboy boots do you think I ever meet?
Oh, I see. Well, now you know! "
The long post that the cyber-gods ate had a fuller sentence on cowboy boots, more or less like: "In Montana or Texas, cowboy boots might just be a normal choice of clothing with no message intended, but here in Michigan, where the open-range-cattle business has never existed, anybody wearing cowboy boots is, indeed, ostentatiously trying to make a point." If I met someone here in Michigan who was wearing boots, unless it turned out he was from somewhere else, I would be quite safe in guessing his political views. You, oddly, wouldn't even infer political views from "a t-shirt with a GOP emblem on it".
"Just the same as if you see a woman in a face-veil, and you automatically assume she is a supporter of the Taliban, then you might be wrong."
Yes, of course I might. I see that MuslimWoman is strongly opposed to *compulsory* veiling, although she does not see anything wrong with a society in which veiling is "chosen" under a high level of duress, taking it for granted that Arab men should naturally be expected to leer and make lewd suggestions to any woman who shows her face.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

What you said was, "What you are talking about are areas under Sharia law - which I in no way support."

You are very good at jumping to conclusions Bob. Look at the bold bit. I said I in no way support the areas under Sharia law. That means I do not support the practices of the Saudi's or other areas.

Originally Posted by bob x

On "honor killings" in India: the name is the same, but the practice is not what we find in Muslim countries.

Your prejudices run very deeply don't they. Here is another article. This is a piece form the following link. Marundupandian was the brother of the bride. So in your view, if a brother and uncle kill you then it is not an honour killing unless you are Muslim?

Marudupandian, accompanied by an uncle of Murugesan, brought her back to the village. Both were allegedly forced to drink some poisonous liquid in the presence of scores of people, who were mute witnesses to the agony of the dying couple. The bodies were burnt, leaving no evidence of the gruesome incident.

Killing for `caste honour'

Here is another one but perhaps as the killers were the brother and cousin but not Muslim this does not count as an honour killing either?

In July 2006, 25-year old Samaira Nazir's killers were jailed for life. Her 21-year-old brother and teenage cousin murdered her for wanting to marry "an unsuitable boy". Campaigners say so-called "honour" murders in the UK are happening more often and that large numbers of British Asian women across the country are seeking help. Can you help The Asian Network Report examine why "honour"-based violence and abuse is on the increase? The police are trying to understand why these crimes happen - do you?

BBC - Asian Network - Documentaries

Originally Posted by bob x

But you do not let yourself be seen as a person, only as a lump in a bag: naturally you will be treated that way, when you have chosen to present yourself that way.

My self respect suggests to me that I am much more than a face or pair of legs or cleavage. My mind and heart is what makes me me, not the colour of my lipstick.

If you refer to me as a lump in a bag once more I am going to give up on this discussion, I pointed out that I find it offensive, so would suggest you do not use it again.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Veiling is an interesting issue, I have discussed on another thread my feelings that at times it creates an attractive mystique that is actually what it is designed not to do. Also many young women choose the veil and then put an inch of black eye makeup on, which again is going completely against the point of veiling. For some young women this is exactly why they are choosing to wear the veil, because some men are attracted to the mystery. I imagine some are very disappointed when they finally get to see what is underneath lol

Salaam
MW

anything that you do out of love, respect, and honor of god is good as long as it doesnt hurt anyone. i think many people in the world just hope that it is you making a decision; and not going along with the decision already made up for you and then you are just going along with it, all the while telling yourself you actually made the decision because it makes life work for you that way.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

anything that you do out of love, respect, and honor of god is good as long as it doesnt hurt anyone. i think many people in the world just hope that it is you making a decision; and not going along with the decision already made up for you and then you are just going along with it, all the while telling yourself you actually made the decision because it makes life work for you that way.

To be honest Blazn the truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. No-one asks or tells me to wear it but I do not wear it solely for religious purposes. The religious portion of my decision is that it makes me stand out less, therefore being more modest, it is also a constant reminder of my faith. The social aspect is, as I am travelling in the middle east it helps arab women to accept my presence and not fear that I am bringing my 'western sin' into their midst. However, the decision of how I dress is entirely my own, I certainly do not allow dress to be imposed upon me.

[bob x]

"What you are talking about are areas under Sharia law - which I in no way support."
You are very good at jumping to conclusions Bob. Look at the bold bit. I said I in no way support the areas under Sharia law. That means I do not support the practices of the Saudi's or other areas.

Well, that is a bizarre parsing of the sentence. Naturally I parsed it as "What you are talking about are areas under Sharia law - which I in no way support." I will leave it to others to judge whether I deserve your condemnation for reading your sentence in what seemed a straightforward way-- and noting that it seemed puzzling, read that way, given your other statements of views.
However, can I now "jump to the conclusion" that when you say NO WAY to "areas under Shariah law" that you do not think there is a single area in the Muslim world that interprets and applies the law correctly?

Your prejudices run very deeply don't they. Here is another article. This is a piece form the following link. Marundupandian was the brother of the bride. So in your view, if a brother and uncle kill you then it is not an honour killing unless you are Muslim?

Marudupandian, accompanied by an uncle of Murugesan, brought her back to the village. Both were allegedly forced to drink some poisonous liquid in the presence of scores of people, who were mute witnesses to the agony of the dying couple. The bodies were burnt, leaving no evidence of the gruesome incident.

Indeed this is what I understood by "honor killing". I stand corrected that it is unique to the Muslim world, although you must admit that it is notoriously common there. In Sicily, a delitto d'onoree means that the outraged father kills the boy who dared to sleep with his daughter, where in Algeria, the father kills his daughter.
You followed up with the Nazir case, and claimed the perpetrators were not Muslim: "Greengrocer Azhar Nazir, 30, and his cousin Imran Mohammed, 17, stabbed Nazir's sister Samaira 18 times at the family home in Southall in April 2005. " I think "Imram Mohammed" is a very uncommon name among Hindus.

If you refer to me as a lump in a bag once more I am going to give up on this discussion, I pointed out that I find it offensive, so would suggest you do not use it again.

I will avoid that particular phrasing, but how can we avoid the extremely dehumanizing nature of the veil? Isn't that the whole point of the veil, to make yourself look as little like a human being as possible (Afghans would criticize your icon for not obscuring the eyes, which as JosephM has pointed out can become a focus for trying to imagine what your human appearance actually is), and to signal that the ordinary interactions which human beings have with each other are disallowed? On another board, a woman notes that Muslim women seem anti-social even with other women:
Christian Debate II

By coincidence, today I found that a couple, at least, of the Sisters of Mercy at the local hospital do wear, not just a head-scarf, but that starched white doodad, don't know what the proper term is-- not 100% the old habit as we would have seen in my younger days, but more like it than I have recently seen.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

However, can I now "jump to the conclusion" that when you say NO WAY to "areas under Shariah law" that you do not think there is a single area in the Muslim world that interprets and applies the law correctly?

There is only one country in the world officially under Sharia Law at this time, that is Saudi and you are more than welcome to jump to the conclusion that I do not support their interpretations of Sharia. However, you are not welcome to jump to the conclusion that my lack of support for the Saudi regime is a rejection of my faith or the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

Originally Posted by bob x

Indeed this is what I understood by "honor killing". I stand corrected that it is unique to the Muslim world, although you must admit that it is notoriously common there.

I never tried to deny that it is common among Arab and Asian muslim communities. It was common practice in the Arabian Steppes and India long before the coming of Islam and has remained until this day. It is a shameful practice that must be eliminated.

Originally Posted by bob x

You followed up with the Nazir case, and claimed the perpetrators were not Muslim

I realised after I posted it that they were Muslim not Hindu but I think I got my point across that this is not an entirely muslim practice, as you asserted.

Originally Posted by bob x

I will avoid that particular phrasing, but how can we avoid the extremely dehumanizing nature of the veil?

That is simply a matter of opinion. For ladies that wear the veil there is nothing dehumanising about it. Quite the opposite, you are treated as a human, not a piece of flesh.

Originally Posted by bob x

Isn't that the whole point of the veil, to make yourself look as little like a human being as possible

I have tried my best to explain the point of the veil but you seem set in your mind that it is for 'other' purposes and clearly one of us wears the veil and one doesn't, so I shall just have to leave you to your beliefs.

Originally Posted by bob x

On another board, a woman notes that Muslim women seem anti-social even with other women:
Christian Debate II

The link goes to a paper on 9/11. Well that is what I have always believed, if I want to know about science I should ask a music teacher I live with Muslim women, I am a Muslim woman and no we are not anti social even among ourselves, quite the opposite they are social to the point of making me uncomfortable because of my western upbringing. I have to wonder whether the woman on the other board held stereotypes akin to your own when she made her judgement about Muslim women?

Originally Posted by bob x

By coincidence, today I found that a couple, at least, of the Sisters of Mercy at the local hospital do wear, not just a head-scarf, but that starched white doodad, don't know what the proper term is-- not 100% the old habit as we would have seen in my younger days, but more like it than I have recently seen.

I feel sure they have been there all along but our discussion would make you notice them at this time. So did you tut loudly or hide behind a bush or did you think, oh look there are a couple of nuns and they believe in G-d?

[bob x]

"I never tried to deny that it is common among Arab and Asian muslim communities. "
You tried to blame it on India. North Africa, however, certainly got it from Islam. I attribute it to the asymmetry in which the female is "presumed criminal": if a man has a handsome face and a woman speaks to him, she is grossly at fault for being so forward; if a woman has a pretty face and a man speaks to him, she is grossly at fault for not hiding her face.

"I think I got my point across that this is not an entirely muslim practice, as you asserted."
Yes, you did. I had not heard of such cases among non-Muslims before.

"For ladies that wear the veil there is nothing dehumanising about it. Quite the opposite, you are treated as a human, not a piece of flesh."
A human IS, among other things, a piece of flesh; I understand you don't want to be treated ONLY as a piece of flesh, but someone who hides her face from me makes it impossible for me to relate to her as I would to any other human being.

"The link goes to a paper on 9/11. "
The link was intended to go to a particular thread on the board, "Muslims", not to the strange place it sends you to instead, and I will try once more to copy a link and then give up:
Christian Debate II
It is a discussion you might find interesting, but I do not feel entitled to cut-and-paste the postings: a Muslim woman responds on the thread, explaining various possible reasons why what an American thinks of as a friendly attempt at casual conversation might be viewed by the immigrant women with suspicion and reticence.
"I have to wonder whether the woman on the other board held stereotypes akin to your own when she made her judgement about Muslim women?"
On the contrary, she was trying to treat them as humans, and finding that they would have none of it, to her dismay.

"I feel sure they have been there all along but our discussion would make you notice them at this time. "
Pictures were posted on the wall, which I assume to be recent rather than decades-old; I still have still not met face-to-face with a habited nun in my adult life (the ones I mentioned from the medieval-throwback sect were on television). I do not have occasion to wander around the hospital and meet all the staff.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

You tried to blame it on India.

Rubbish. What I said is:

In Pakistan some women have been ordered to be gang raped by court officials - this is nothing to do with our religion, it is a throw back to India's old 'honour killing' days. This is another example of culture meeting religion and people thinking the religion allows it - Islam does not in any way allow the raping of women (there is the issue of slavery and sex with slaves, there is also a whole thread on that issue you can read rather than discuss it again here).

You will actually see that I was talking about Islam, in Pakistan. This was an example of how women are abused due to cultural issues, not religious. We then changed the subject when you said that honour killing was a purely Muslim event. Honour killings were normal in the arab and surrounding countries prior to Islam and some of those traits have remained, like female circumcision. That is why you will find most honour killings throughout the world are by families from the arab countries and India/Pakistan, etc. My point was that the religion does not call for this, they are examples of culture and religion being entwined.

Originally Posted by bob x

North Africa, however, certainly got it from Islam. I attribute it to the asymmetry in which the female is "presumed criminal": if a man has a handsome face and a woman speaks to him, she is grossly at fault for being so forward; if a woman has a pretty face and a man speaks to him, she is grossly at fault for not hiding her face.

Excuse me, I live in North Africa, am a woman and am Muslim. Now let me try to guess which one of us may understand the social system, erm. Wait the answer is coming to me.

'presumed criminal' and 'grossly at fault'?? Where do you get these ideas. Allow me to explain the social dynamic. Women are not seen as criminal, we are seen as special, very special. We are to be protected, wrapped in cotton wool and respected. If a man tries to pick me up and grabs hold of my hand, I take off my shoe hit him and shout. Help arrives in 3 seconds and the man is arrested. In the bank I stand in the ladies line, this means strange men cannot brush up against me (it also means I get served a lot quicker). A womans reputation is paramount and we are responsible for protecting it but that doesn't make us presumed criminals.

Originally Posted by bob x

A human IS, among other things, a piece of flesh; I understand you don't want to be treated ONLY as a piece of flesh, but someone who hides her face from me makes it impossible for me to relate to her as I would to any other human being.

And we, as Muslim women, choose to keep that piece of flesh private. What is important to us is our faith, our modesty, not whether you can relate to us.

Originally Posted by bob x

It is a discussion you might find interesting, but I do not feel entitled to cut-and-paste the postings: a Muslim woman responds on the thread, explaining various possible reasons why what an American thinks of as a friendly attempt at casual conversation might be viewed by the immigrant women with suspicion and reticence.

It was a very interesting discussion and I have given it much thought. It is difficult to comment on without knowing which country the Muslim lady came from. However, culture is without doubt one reason.

I tried to remember how I was treated when I first went to Egypt. It was with outward friendliness (which is an egyptian trait) but with some suspision. We must remember that stereotypes work both ways and most Middle East countries think western women are all loose women that get drunk every night (as we generally think they are oppressed and need saved). When you get into Middle Eastern countries that don't have the tourist levels of Egypt, then the suspision level rises.

I can't say what it must feel like for an arabic woman to be taken to live in the depths of hell (which is essentially what they grow up being taught the west is, because of all the open sin) but I know if I brought my very outgoing sister in law to the UK she would shrink into a shell.

Most of the women in the Mid East are home bodies, not international travellers. They grow up with a clearly defined role, as wives and mothers. It must be very difficult to be taken out of that atmosphere. Add to that the difficulties since 9/11, the attitudes to the dress and that Muslims tend to stay in their own social circle, the ladies reaction is understandable but sad. This is where communication is required, so we all understand each others lives and can all communicate without suspision.

[bob x]

"What is important to us is our faith, our modesty, not whether you can relate to us"
Well, you can't have it both ways. The sight of another human being inspires warm and friendly feelings, but out of fear of those who get, shall we say, too warm, you want to cut that off. So you replace the human form with an alien form that will inspire more cold and aloof reactions. You succeed in repelling me-- but then you want to blame me for feeling repelled. You think that if I just "understand" it, I will feel less repelled (since the intensity of my repulsion is evidently more than you are really after-- but when you speak of "my modesty", of course you mean that you want males to be repelled). It isn't working: for one thing, the more I understand from you of what gender relations in the Muslim world are like, the unhealthier it all sounds. For another thing, we are dealing at bottom with visceral reactions that are not readily changed by reasoning. If you see no connection between this and the horrendous misogynist violence that is found in Muslim countries, I certainly do. You say that honor killings, genital mutilation, etc. were characteristic of "Arab" countries before Islam, but note: Egypt was NOT an Arab country before Islam; neither was the rest of North Africa; Islam brought to North Africa the worst of Arabia together with the best.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Well, you can't have it both ways.

So either we have to apply your dress code, forget our faith and change our manner of speaking in order to be accepted by you or cause repulsion? Repulsion it is then, if you desire to be that narrow minded. I still cannot fathom how anyone can judge people simply on their choice of dress. It isn't a stones throw from judging people by the country they were born in.

Originally Posted by bob x

The sight of another human being inspires warm and friendly feelings, but out of fear of those who get, shall we say, too warm, you want to cut that off.

Fear? Please explain to me how I have demonstrated any fear of people. If I met InLove (a Christian lady) in the street I would give her a huge hug and lots of kisses, I would walk in the street holding her hand or arm, as my sister. The fact that I choose not to do that to Flow or 17th or Wil is by virtue of their gender, that is not 'fear' of their gender but respect for my faith. I would be friendly and warm in conversation but I would also expect them to respect my choice not to be alone with them or be touched by them.

Perhaps one of them would like to comment on wether my choice would repulse them?

Originally Posted by bob x

You say that honor killings, genital mutilation, etc. were characteristic of "Arab" countries before Islam, but note: Egypt was NOT an Arab country before Islam; neither was the rest of North Africa; Islam brought to North Africa the worst of Arabia together with the best.

Yes and it all belonged to the Romans before that, so I feel sure they left some rather unsavoury practices too. Female circumcision in Egypt goes back to, the experts believe, Pharonic times (est 5000 years ago). So please explain how Islam or even Arabs can be blamed for that one? That one actually came out of Africa. Islam is not at fault here, what is at fault are people and their cultural practices. I cannot speak for the whole of the Muslim population, the Quran does not allow honour killings but yes they still go on but I have found nothing that leads me to believe this practice was 'invented' by Islam.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

The fact that I choose not to do that to Flow or 17th or Wil is by virtue of their gender, that is not 'fear' of their gender but respect for my faith.

No hugs You gotta give me the chapter and verse in the Koran that forbids it....and find verses that accept it

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

No hugs You gotta give me the chapter and verse in the Koran that forbids it....and find verses that accept it

And here was me thinking the voice of reason had arrived

Okay Wil, will make a deal with you, if my hubby says it's okay for me to hug you then I will but you have to ask him (hope you can duck quickly).

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

And here was me thinking the voice of reason had arrived

Okay Wil, will make a deal with you, if my hubby says it's okay for me to hug you then I will but you have to ask him (hope you can duck quickly).

ru kiddin? surely you don't imagine I wouldn't ask...(if'n that is what is required) I've been known to convert non huggers all over!