Keys to the Kingdom

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Francis king

muslimwoman, farhan, thank u both... I have taken ur posts to mean...

"those who believe in God go to heaven" if that is wrong then pls contradict me...

I think our conclusion is that G-d will decide, He alone knows who truly believes in their hearts and who is really a good person (not just outwardly to look pious). My personal belief is that G-d would not reject anyone simply because they have a nametag. Muslim simply means a person that has submitted to G-d, it is true that has become kown as a given religion in modern times but did G-d change this or did mankind?

Originally Posted by Francis king

my opinion is...

it is not for us to decide, is it? yes, we can write lists, but ultimately, the choice is God's...

I agree with you. It would be very arrogant and stupid if I were to say that all Christians believe Jesus (pbuh) is a seperate G-d to Allah. And even if they did who am I to say they are wrong, only G-d Himself can decide.

Originally Posted by Francis king

I would like to add though.... we can only submit to the will of God if God himself tells us... otherwise, we submit to the will of another...

I think this depends what you mean Francis. If you mean it would require the angel Gabrielle appearing to tell us individually of G-d's existence then I can't agree. If you mean that we have an inner awakening, then yes I agree and that is not something I believe we can try to make others believe, it is a personal awakening and a path of our own to walk.

Salaam

[bob x]

Originally Posted by farhan

The world Islam means "submitting one's will to God". And all prophets before Muhammad (pbuh) brought this same message to humanity . So technically we are all born muslims . And every body who followed the prophet of his time was a muslim .Now there is a little difference between Deen & Sharia. Deen always remains the same . Sharia (law) might change a little bit from prophet to prophet . Its not that God changes his mind, but different people have different circumstances in which they live, and a law that was good for one nation living in a particular place & time , might not be equally good for another nation living in another time frame or on another continent .

But after the final messenger, this final law is for everybody.

Of course, there is no record of anybody before Muhammad bringing the "same message" that Muhammad did. Muslims have to play this game of pretending that there *used to be* versions of the Torah and Gospels etc. that agreed with the Qur'an, despite the absence of any trace of such things...
What I believe about the Qur'an is that it was adequate for a particular place and time. It has nothing to say to non-Arabs, and it is not very good even for Arabs in the modern period.

[BlaznFattyz]

The world Islam means "submitting one's will to God". And all prophets before Muhammad (pbuh) brought this same message to humanity .

personally i dont think so. picture you are in a desert and its super freaking hot and you are beyond thirsty and about to pass out. so you see a spring of water, and from that spring you quench your thirst and rehydrate yourself, cool your body down, wash yourself, rejuvenate yourself from being buzzard food. i believe christ taught that love for god is the spring, and all that flows from it brings about works, submitting your will, faith, obedience, fear, and worship. now if submission is the spring, then love for god is secondary. and what a powerful weapon submission can be in the hands of men who want to control others and sad for those who allow it.

[wil]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

and what a powerful weapon submission can be in the hands of men who want to control others and sad for those who allow it.

I think you are right...as evidenced by the crusades...current war in Iraq...just countless times that has been proven to be so...

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

What I believe about the Qur'an is that it was adequate for a particular place and time. It has nothing to say to non-Arabs, and it is not very good even for Arabs in the modern period.

You are welcome to your opinion but I am a non-Arab and the Quran has much to say to me, even in this modern time.

Salaam

[China Cat Sunflower]

What was your entry point Sally? I've tried to read the Quran, it's perennially on my reading list, but I just glaze over after a couple of chapters. I'm sure the Bible would have the same effect on me if it wasn't such a huge part of my early programming and later self-deprogramming. I have a huge interest in understanding the Muslim world, but I just can't bring myself to read their scripture. How stupid is that?

Chris

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

What was your entry point Sally? I've tried to read the Quran, it's perennially on my reading list, but I just glaze over after a couple of chapters. I'm sure the Bible would have the same effect on me if it wasn't such a huge part of my early programming and later self-deprogramming. I have a huge interest in understanding the Muslim world, but I just can't bring myself to read their scripture. How stupid is that?

Chris

Quite frankly Chris it would have had the same effect on me had I tried to just open it and start reading, although it would have been a good sedative.

What I did was take a couple of 'issues' I had with my western media 'knowledge' of Islam and research them in the Quran. My first few were womens rights issues, the very first being polygamy, which outraged me (the absolute affront of it to women). However once I actually read the verse that talks about polygamy I had to take a step back, the book was actually talking about providing for women and orphans, not mens sexual desires. Okay said my mind, but what about ....... and so it went. At each issue I was faced with a different understanding than the one I had been led to believe. So to be honest I saw it as a research project, not learning a faith. It was almost in spite of Islam that I become a Muslim (if you see what I mean), I wanted to prove to myself how awful this religion was. The next step was a little harder, because I then had to open out to other people's interpretations and boy what a minefield but we are told we can accept or reject a scholars opinion as long as it is not outside of the Quran. So in reality, by the time I had completed my first round of research I had in fact read the whole of the Quran and saw the true faith that was being taught, not the manmade greed and political struggle that has become known as Islam.

So that is what I would suggest if you really want to learn about Muslim life, take an issue that offends you and research it in the Quran (easier if you do it online or you need a Quran like one of mine, where if I am looking up war I just turn to the back and it lists every verse that mentions or pertains to war - definately worth the extra money). Once you see that what the western media tells us and what the Quran say are 2 different things, the research becomes more interesting.

Sally

[bob x]

Why is it that you were "wanting to prove to yourself how awful the religion was"?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Why is it that you were "wanting to prove to yourself how awful the religion was"?

Because I believed the hype, the media told me Islam was about oppression, hatred, killing and I believed them, as appeared to be borne out by so called Islamic terrorist activity.

I then went to the Middle East and heard music by Sami Yusuf, this made me curious and I began asking questions of Muslims. I was told that most of the stories are misconceptions and so I set out to prove to Muslims that their book said "x, y & z" as quoted by the media. How very silly and arrogant of me. Also made me look and feel very silly when I realised how much my opinion had been swayed by the media, without ever having the intelligence to research the subject.

[Ahanu]

A discussion of the requirements for entering Heaven and status there in...

All Abrahamic and all denominations/sects/divisions of each and every religion therin are encouraged to participate.

Hey Wil,

What do you consider the Kingdom of God to be? I agree with Thich Nhat Hanh that the Kingdom of God is as a mustard seed planted in the soil of consciousness. The Kingdom of God is our consciousness. You will have to have the Holy Spirit to enter, and that is the only requirement.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!"

Once you have the Spirit, you can enter in freely.

[bob x]

Maybe we need to back up a littel, I have no idea who you are or where you are coming from. Your sidebar says you are from Egypt, so I took it for granted you were an Arabic-speaker; now you say you "went" to the Middle East (from where?) although you were filled with prejudice against it (why did you go, then?) Your icon (whether a picture of you, or not, makes no difference) depicts you in the full-masking veil (concerning my own prejudices, you should know that I think only gunmen and thieves have any reason to mask their faces) which makes you look like a thorough-going rejecter of the modern world, yet you deny that also, or perhaps I am misunderstanding again.

[Muslimwoman]

Okay Bob, back to the beginning. I was born and largely raised in Germany but am British by nationality. I was Christian for most of my life. I have travelled widely, living with numerous cultures. I have always been fascinated by ancient Egypt, so have travelled there numerous times. During my last trip I decided to stay and live in Egypt, I converted to Islam and then married an Arabic Muslim. Me in a nutshell

I do not wear a face veil, as I do not believe my religion instructs me to do so but I do cover my hair, I wear hijab. The picture was an experiment (it's in a thread somewhere), I shall get round to changing it soon. As for covering the face, some Muslim women do this as a form of modesty, not to hide their identity.

[bob x]

"As for covering the face, some Muslim women do this as a form of modesty, not to hide their identity."
Yes, yes, I know the motive is in terms of the very repressive attitudes about sexuality, but I do not find that any more respectable: such a severe rejection of the way we are created amounts to a hatred of the creator, in my view.

[wil]

Originally Posted by bob x

"As for covering the face, some Muslim women do this as a form of modesty, not to hide their identity."
Yes, yes, I know the motive is in terms of the very repressive attitudes about sexuality, but I do not find that any more respectable: such a severe rejection of the way we are created amounts to a hatred of the creator, in my view.

WOW!!

This?? This is a Baha'i?? A member of a religion who purports to be the culmination of various religions and honoring nine different religions?? I am thoroughly confused, talk about looking behind the veil...whee...

Of course I have my prejudices...when I read of a religion that believes that G!d says men can't have long hair...that stops me from looking more into Baha'i other then for knowledge sake...but your responses truly make me wonder...

[bob x]

What in the world gave you the idea that I am Baha'i????