Keys to the Kingdom

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by farhan

Lets say one day you started your computer , & you heard it telling other computers,"I wont get started, I am my own boss, there is no such thing as Snoopy, stupid computers believe in Snoopy. Its just bad programming that makes them believe that......... So what are you going to do with that machine?

Salam

Does Snoopy exist?

Does farhan exist?

[Muslimwoman]

I wanted to come back to this subject as it is really troubling me at the moment. This is a verse from the Quran

010.047
YUSUFALI: To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.
PICKTHAL: And for every nation there is a messenger. And when their messenger cometh (on the Day of Judgment) it will be judged between them fairly, and they will not be wronged.
SHAKIR: And every nation had a messenger; so when their messenger came, the matter was decided between them with justice and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.

What I am told by our scholars is that the meaning of this verse is that each person that died before the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) came, will be judged according to their own religion. However, after the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), being the last of the Prophets, everyone will be judged according to Islam.

Here is my problem. Surely, if a Christian never reads the Quran they cannot be classed as having received the message of Islam (as the Quran is the message os Islam)? Therefore that person would surely be judged by the message of their own Prophet (pbut)?

Allah clearly tells us in the above verse that "they will not be wronged". Islam has clearly been hijacked by the cycle of violence and intolerance - anyone that denies that is simply not a realist and cannot see Muslim killing Muslim now in the world. The only way that I got past that was to sit and read the Quran and judge for myself, however I can certainly see why others do not follow my experience.

Please consider for a moment this question and answer session on the Day of Judgement:

Q "Why didn't you follow Islam?"
A "Because it is so violent"
Q "did you read the Quran?"
A "No"
Q "Why"
A "Muslims were killing Muslims and non Muslims alike and then said Islam is the religion of peace"
Q "Why did you continue to follow the religion of your fathers after We sent the final scripture?"
A "Because of the actions of the Muslims, I was afraid to follow them"

I really do not mean that in a flippant way or to suggest I could ever guess the intentions of G-d, so please do not be offended.

G-d is merciful and has clearly stated that all people will not be wronged on the Day of Jugement. Can we, as Muslims, really anticipate that G-d will judge people badly for not following our example of hatred, intolerance and violence? Let us not beat about the bush here, Allah did not teach us this behaviour and our Beloved Prophet did not teach us this behaviour, in fact they taught the opposite. We, the Ummah, have taught it to ourselves over the centuries and until we put our own house in order we should be ashamed to even suggest that G-d will punish people for not following our example.

IMHO it is us, the Muslims, that should be afraid of the Day of Judgement, because Allah has given us the message, from the final Messenger, of Islam the religion of peace and just look what we have done with that message. We have made people afraid to even hear the message and it is us, the Muslims, that in fact stop others from finding the true path to heaven.

I hang my head in shame.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I hang my head in shame.

Your voice and other voices like yours should be heard. No need to hang your head in shame. It is those that are intolerant and preach intolerance that should look within.

This is the issue, the loudest, strongest voices, the ones that make the headlines and the news, are the most intolerant...

This is in both camps of the worlds largest religions...Christianity and Islam.

Infidels are to be elliminated....If you don't proclaim Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour you are going to hell and burn for all eternity.

As long as we have folks openly stating these things...without the masses standing up and saying...Wait a minute... we will continue to be in trouble...

throw up your window, stick out your head and yell, "I'm sick and tired of this and I'm not going to take it anymore"

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by farhan

Islam is very strict about this standard.

What is Islam NOT strict on?

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by post-abrahamic

I notice that there is no mention of why non-Abrahamics would be barred from heaven. If an atheist or a Wiccan lives a good life why would God forbid entry to heaven?

Seems to me that any religion that cannot distinguish between good and bad people regardless of religious affiliation lacks the wisdom to give moral advice.

What are you noticing?
(Hint: Jesus Christ)
I do not want to be a wet blanket...

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

throw up your window, stick out your head and yell, "I'm sick and tired of this and I'm not going to take it anymore"

My neighbours were not amused Luckily they don't speak English and as a foreigner they already think I am nuts.

I am seriously thinking of starting a new religion, it goes like this:

Name: Love G-d
Scripture: Treat every creature with dignity and respect.

That is it, my whole religion. Can you imagine if we all actually did this, we could not go to war because it would violate this commandment, we could not speak hatred because it would violate this commandment, we could not covet because.......hang about, is this sounding familiar?

Then how would we all be judged when the time comes?

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Does Snoopy exist?

Does farhan exist?

One thing is clear. I exist!!!!! I just don't have a name. Who am I!!!!!???? I'm nameless. If xxxxxx is my name, then does xxxxxx exist?

I said earlier that I exist, so if xxxxxx is my name, surely xxxxxx exists!!!!!
That is, unless xxxxxx is not my name.

Saltmeister isn't really my name. It's just an online identity. Saltmeister is the identity of a person that exists but Saltmeister doesn't really exist as a real person except as the identity of a real person.

So if Y is an online identity of a real person. Can Y be said to exist?

What if someone steals my password? Does Y now have multiple personality disorder?

Regards,

Five of Thirteen

P. S. I assure you no-one has stolen my password and I am just one person, not 13.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I am seriously thinking of starting a new religion, it goes like this:

Name: Love G-d
Scripture: Treat every creature with dignity and respect.

That is it, my whole religion. Can you imagine if we all actually did this, we could not go to war because it would violate this commandment, we could not speak hatred because it would violate this commandment, we could not covet because.......hang about, is this sounding familiar?

Amen sister, sure does...I'll bet it is buried in most every religion...are these words of Jesus in the Koran?

"Jesus said…Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt.22:37-40.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I am seriously thinking of starting a new religion, it goes like this:

Name: Love G-d
Scripture: Treat every creature with dignity and respect.

That is it, my whole religion. Can you imagine if we all actually did this, we could not go to war because it would violate this commandment, we could not speak hatred because it would violate this commandment, we could not covet because.......hang about, is this sounding familiar?

Then how would we all be judged when the time comes?

Well, I believe sometimes to be truly Christian and Muslim one has to go against everything he/she has been taught to be truly Christian or Muslim. Become Public Enemy Number One with regards to our respective faiths -- that the best way to be Christian or Muslim is to try not to be one.

By embracing this "Love God" religion we may cease to be Christian and Muslim in the eyes of the other adherents of our respective faiths, but deep inside we are still adherents to the original.

I don't believe that by doing so we lose our Christian or Muslim identity, we would still be distinctly Christian or Muslim but not in the explicit, political, public sense -- more in the private, personal, implicit sense.

We'd be judged as being humble and keeping our personal beliefs to ourselves and not lording it over others.

We'd be the True Patriots, doing it for Christianity/Islam respectively. Upholding but not undermining. Accused and condemned for treason and sedition, but loyals in secret. Rebels with a cause.

Especially true if our "government" does controversial things (ie. our respective religious establishments -- using metaphors/analogies here -- don't take it all literally). The powers that be are not God's servant. They are just a structural framework. Organisations that have gone foul.

The Tabernacle was not the real Temple of God, just a fallible, man-made copy of it. The real Temple was in heaven (Hebrews 9).

This is of course, a reference to the Tabernacle built by the Israelites, but it would still apply to Christians today, as we must not mistake the organisations (or individuals) that facilitate the Christian liturgical/spiritual experience for the real Church!!! These organisations, establishments or denominations are just Tabernacles that we have built. It was not just about the Tabernacle built by the Israelites. So the same principle applies -- it is not the real thing. Same for the equivalent in Islam.

Just as Marxism was about class struggles and the elimination of classes, so Christianity is the elimination of Tabernacles. The significance of this is that as Christians, we have accidentally built more Tabernacles rather than trying to find the real Temple. We've been distracted!!! The early apostles warned us against false Temples. We've constructed counterfeit cornerstones!!! We're trying to get rid of these Tabernacles but somehow they just come up out of nowhere. The hope is that one day we will live in the Real Temple, not just a Tabernacle that we have built.

That's the Ideal in Christianity as I see it, and there must surely be an equivalent in Islam. I believe all this just is really just a set of metaphors just to keep us aligned to the real goal, and not be led astray. Christianity and Islam may indeed be different flavours of God's religion designed to keep us tuned into the right wavelength.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

Amen sister, sure does...I'll bet it is buried in most every religion...are these words of Jesus in the Koran?

"Jesus said…Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt.22:37-40.

The same teaching is in the Quran. As for Jesus (pbuh), he is quoted a number of times in the Quran - this is one:

And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path. 19:36

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

that the best way to be Christian or Muslim is to try not to be one.

I would never try not to be a Muslim, however I will never try to be the Muslim I am told to be (ie going against the true teaching of the Quran and my moral judgement). I see where you are coming from, we must be the Christian and Muslim we know G-d wants and tells us to be, not the one our 'leaders' are demanding we should be.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

By embracing this "Love God" religion we may cease to be Christian and Muslim in the eyes of the other adherents of our respective faiths, but deep inside we are still adherents to the original.

Or be better Christian and Muslim? That is certainly my intention and I believe the true path to G-d. At the end of days it is G-d that will judge us, not our fellow man.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

We'd be judged as being humble and keeping our personal beliefs to ourselves and not lording it over others.

As servants of G-d is humble not the first requirement?

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

We'd be the True Patriots, doing it for Christianity/Islam respectively. Upholding but not undermining. Accused and condemned for treason and sedition, but loyals in secret. Rebels with a cause.

I am accused of sedition on a daily basis so nothing new there for me. How dare I refuse to hate and judge people and condemn them for their beliefs.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Christianity and Islam may indeed be different flavours of God's religion designed to keep us tuned into the right wavelength.

I wish people would stop twiddling the bloody knobs.

Salaam

[farhan]

Something that puzzles me is that Arabic simply does not translate well into other languages and indeed some words simply do not translate at all. Allah knows everything, so He knows this and yet the Quran was revealed in Arabic. Have you heard or read anything which discusses this?

Ofcourse I have read/heard this in diffeent books/lectures. But......have you read something that says otherwise. The word Islam can be translated into many different meanings. But if you sum up all the meanings, it becomes something like "the peace (of mind & obviously body too) that is attained when one submits his will, with sincerity & obedience, to the will of God .

IMO we were all made to live in heaven, & not on this planet or in this body. It was one act of disobedience, one act that was un-islamic, that proved that we need to tame the inherent uncertainity (freewill) that our creater gave us. And we are on this planet to learn only that. It was not a sin because every body knew it is gonna happen (2:30). The inherent uncertainity is actually a part of being the best of creations (We humans give this power to the best of our machines, & call it artificial intelligence) . The whole point of being here is to learn to obey, & to go back to our orignal motherland (2:38). This time, we will know by experience that following the creater is the best way.

Also, please can you tell me your opinion of when a person is considered to "have received the message of Islam"? For me this was at my first reading of the Quran and even before I had finished I decided to convert. For example, would you consider the nonMuslims on this site to have received the message?

Recieve the message is a very relative term, Nobody other than the prophets can ever be sure that he has delivered the message. And as Muslims we arnt suppose to give any verdict regarding anybody's Eman, or his after life.There is a hadith regarding this :

Usama Ibn Zaid: was sent on an expedition by the Messenger Muhammad (saw). He said: ‘One of the Mushrikeen said laa ilaaha illalah and I killed him but I felt bad and I told the Messenger Muhammad’ The Messenger Muhammad (saw) said: ‘Did you kill him after he said laa ilaaha illalah?’ Usamah said 'Yes, but he only said it because he feared from my weapon.' Muhammad s.a.w. said ‘Did you check his heart? What will you do if he comes to you on the day of judgement with his Kalima’

As a muslim its our duty to invite people to our way, show them its beauty, remove any misconceptions, & thats it . Judging somebody's afterlife is not our business. God has given every body brain & heart to think. And he has given everybody the freedom to choose. As he himself said, if he wanted, everybody would have been a muslim . So, let him do his business.

If I remember correctly, this is related to Ghazali. somebody asked him about Maronite Christians . He said that they live inside muslim lands, Islamic teachings are easily available to them, yet they dont accept, so will thet go to hell. Ghazali replied that although they live in Islamic lands, but from the very first day, they are told that Islam is an evil religion. When they are adults, they are not even willing to think about Islam. But its not their fault, God is definitely going to be lenient to them, as its he who has put them there, in a situation where they have lost their willingness to think.

I think in the current times, this can be said about most of the western people . They are contiouously being hypnotised by images on their TV. They arnt even given the freedom to think beyond "we are under threat", "they hate us" & "Islam is some barbaric idology " .This fuss creates so much emotional disturbance that their minds arnt able to think beyond the fear & apprehension that gets associated with Islam. The blame lies more on us Muslims , than them . We muslims arnt even trained to answer simple questions about Islam. How can we assume that they have received the message.

Here is my problem. Surely, if a Christian never reads the Quran they cannot be classed as having received the message of Islam (as the Quran is the message os Islam)? Therefore that person would surely be judged by the message of their own Prophet (pbut)?

Ofcourse. But the problem goes deeper. What if that person got the message but was told that its not to be followed? And how do you define "their own Prophet" in current times . There are lots of ifs & buts in this. And only God can do perfect justice.

Does Snoopy exist?

Does farhan exist?

He thinks he does. But what if he is only programmed to think like that . Programmed to think that he can think. Programmed to think that he thinks he exists. Afterall, reality is just a persistant illusion. Anyways, this is going somewhere else. The whole reason of this analogy, was to make an atheist (Mr. Dawkins) think about his reason to exist . We humans ususlly delete a software when it gets corrupted. We throwout any machine if it doesnot work. To believe that a person will not believe in God & still go to heaven doesent make any sense.

What is Islam NOT strict on

Lots of different things. Their is a hadith that says: "God wont forgive two things , Shirk (associating partners with God), & the rights of people. Rights of people can be forgiven if that person forgives him . So we are left only with one thing. Shirk.

Amen sister, sure does...I'll bet it is buried in most every religion...are these words of Jesus in the Koran?

"Jesus said…Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt.22:37-40.

The same message with different words
How important is it to be good to my neighbor?

[Muslimwoman]

Thank you Farhan

A good post and has laid some of my fears to rest. I have been troubled when I am told that other people are damned and only Muslims (in the modern term) can be allowed into heaven, as I have always believed that only Allah can judge our hearts, minds and actions and only He can decide who enters heaven. It is comforting to know I am not the only Muslim that believes this. Thank you.

Salaam
MW

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

we must be the Christian and Muslim we know G-d wants and tells us to be, not the one our 'leaders' are demanding we should be.

very wise words. however, not only is it leaders, but it would be also culture, society, and the very words of a book one might think as holy, when it even goes against the nature of god or even fails to put into action his love or gets too caught up in itself it has blinders to the rest. that which is of god does not come back empty.

[Francis king]

muslimwoman, farhan, thank u both... I have taken ur posts to mean...

"those who believe in God go to heaven" if that is wrong then pls contradict me...

my opinion is...

it is not for us to decide, is it? yes, we can write lists, but ultimately, the choice is God's...

I would like to add though.... we can only submit to the will of God if God himself tells us... otherwise, we submit to the will of another...