just pondering

[christine.P]

This is something that I have often thought about… I have often wondered if Hell has been conjured and dreamt up by fearful human imaginations… by those that fear and believe that there is an opposite of everything.



Personally I would say no, and that Heaven and Hell are what you make of your life here in this incarnated lifetime. You can create your own hell right here on earth. Consequently, you can create your own heaven as well.

It would be interesting to hear other views on this…


With respect… Bow…

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by christine.P

Personally I would say no, and that Heaven and Hell are what you make of your life here in this incarnated lifetime.

I would like to believe that heaven is something far greater than this, and that hell therefore (therefore at least for me as I am one of those who believe in opposites) is something far worse than anything we could experience here. To exist, either perfectly within, or totally without the knowledge and presence of love, must be impossible here in this incarnation.

Originally Posted by chritine.P

You can create your own hell right here on earth. Consequently, you can create your own heaven as well.

You could raise the issue of the difference between "your own heaven" and Heaven.
Also, the creation of a personal heaven here on Earth would not rule out the presence of an actual Heaven elsewhere.

[taijasi]

"All we are is the result of what we have thought." - The Buddha

As a good friend of mine often reminds me, "What you do today, determines your tomorrow."

This is karma. "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." Cause and Effect - The Great Law ...

Heaven-like experiences between lives, and the hellishness that also confronts each of us soon after death, are universal. We shall all have a taste. The one is like the Brilliant, warming Rays of the Sun above - shining generously upon all. Yet there are also the storms and extreme conditions of the elements. These too, affect us all.

How strange this notion that the LAW might make exceptions. Not so, not so.

taijasi

[China Cat Sunflower]

What's the point in having a heaven if there isn't something really, really bad to compare it to? Plus, there has to be a fitting punishment for bad people who don't seem to get their just reward in this life. The real question isn't if there's a heaven and hell, it's why do we need them?

Chris

[I, Brian]

Heaven I see as much about a higher state of existence - a natural part of our spiritual evolution.

I really have no place for a Hell of any kind in my outlook. To myself, it's an expression of retribution, extrapolated from cultural needs as a human construct, rather than anything that existed outside of us.

2c.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

The real question isn't if there's a heaven and hell, it's why do we need them?

Is this the real question?
Our not needing them would negate neither the possibility of their presence, nor the possibility of us eventually going to one of them.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Heaven I see as much about a higher state of existence - a natural part of our spiritual evolution.

What would you say happens to those who regress rather than advance, could they enter a lower state of existence?

[wil]

Originally Posted by christine.P

This is something that I have often thought about… I have often wondered if Hell has been conjured and dreamt up by fearful human imaginations… by those that fear and believe that there is an opposite of everything.

Personally I would say no, and that Heaven and Hell are what you make of your life here in this incarnated lifetime. You can create your own hell right here on earth. Consequently, you can create your own heaven as well.

It would be interesting to hear other views on this…


With respect… Bow…

You've stated my view. Look neither high nor low, tis in our midst, personal decisions... The need to define and explain the unkown is a human one and our imaginations today and thousands of years ago were more than willing to satisfy that need.

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Heaven I see as much about a higher state of existence - a natural part of our spiritual evolution.

I really have no place for a Hell of any kind in my outlook. To myself, it's an expression of retribution, extrapolated from cultural needs as a human construct, rather than anything that existed outside of us.

2c.

I agree.

Many think of Heaven as good and Hell as bad.

The question that pops into my mind with this definition is: Does that mean (in their view) that there is no free will in "Heaven?" Can individuals in Heaven ever choose something that, on a scale of choices, falls lower on the scale than other good choices? And if so, by comparison, wouldn't that lesser good be considered bad? (I'm not trying to commit any logical fallacies here ... just musing.)

Whenever there is free will, by the nature of choice, there must be opposites. That's not to say that an individual, while able to choose bad, ever will. But the choice must exist ontologically.

We are not either yin OR yang. We are both yin AND yang. Or to be more precise, we are the little line that runs between yin and yang, able to pull from either side at any time.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by AletheiaRivers

I agree.

Many think of Heaven as good and Hell as bad.

The question that pops into my mind with this definition is: Does that mean (in their view) that there is no free will in "Heaven?" Can individuals in Heaven ever choose something that, on a scale of choices, falls lower on the scale than other good choices? And if so, by comparison, wouldn't that lesser good be considered bad? (I'm not trying to commit any logical fallacies here ... just musing.)

Whenever there is free will, by the nature of choice, there must be opposites. That's not to say that an individual, while able to choose bad, ever will. But the choice must exist ontologically.

Can't argue with that logic, I would just say that I don't believe there will be free will in heaven.

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Can't argue with that logic, I would just say that I don't believe there will be free will in heaven.

Which certainly might be true. But what would be the point of being there?

[taijasi]

Oh my goodness, while I would hesitate to open up a can of worms unnecessarily ... these last two posts prompt me to suggest -

- that Free Will does not necessarily imply opposites. I think it only implies choice. So Aletheia, I would agree that in Heaven, a scale or range of choices will confront us, just as in physical incarnation. While between incarnations, there will be many choices absent which - by definition - can only exist while in the flesh! Otherwise, indeed, what's the point of the latter?

And yet, in contemplating those who have attained Nirvana (aka Liberation, Final Redemption, Enlightenment, etc.), again I must insist - there remains CHOICE. To us, the range of choices no longer includes those things which we consider "sin," moral wrong, or evil. However, there are certainly Greater and lesser degrees of service, or attainment. Voluntary choice, for example, can return an otherwise-Liberated and Enlightened Soul to earthly service ... and this is the path of the Nirmanakayas and Bodhisattvas. To suggest that these are not occupants or inhabitants of Highest Heaven is of course, quite silly!

Part of the difficulty may arise from the notion that Heaven is somehow a place, versus a state of mind, awareness, or Enlightenment. Christ, Buddha, and every other Great Teacher indicated the latter, but notions of a physical Valhalla still linger in our culture ...

Namaskar,

taijasi

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by taijasi

- that Free Will does not necessarily imply opposites. I think it only implies choice.

Yup. That's what I meant by saying that we are the little line that exists between the yin and the yang in my post above. The word "opposites," in this metaphysical sense, could mean something like male and female, for example. Not strict opposites in the way Westerners commonly understand the word. More of a polarity.

Part of the difficulty may arise from the notion that Heaven is somehow a place, versus a state of mind, awareness, or Enlightenment.

If you believe that you go "somewhere" between incarnations, might you call that "place" heaven. Or do you believe that you cease to exist when you die?

Christ, Buddha, and every other Great Teacher indicated the latter, but notions of a physical Valhalla still linger in our culture ...

Hey! I happen to be a big fan of Odin and Freya!

[flowperson]

AR

I can see you right now in my mind's eye with one of those horned viking helmets on your head, wearing a gold studded leather girdle and long-flimsy- flowing gown singing an aria from a Wagner opera. On second thought, you're probably also wearing a great broadsword, and occasionally brandishing it for effect.

flow....

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by flowperson

AR

I can see you right now in my mind's eye with one of those horned viking helmets on your head, wearing a gold studded leather girdle and long-flimsy- flowing gown singing an aria from a Wagner opera. On second thought, you're probably also wearing a great broadsword, and occasionally brandishing it for effect.

flow....

You know it!