just pondering

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by cavalier

In any event, I don't see where choice, or the need for a point to existence, comes into it.

That'll teach me to play devil's advocate!

Actually, I was only saying what I was saying about the "choice" thing because I thought you had a more, ummm, stereotypical view of heaven or of "life forever on a paradise earth." (That last part is the ex-JW coming out in me.)

My view of "heaven" does lean towards the non-dual, actually. Hehehe.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Can't argue with that logic, I would just say that I don't believe there will be free will in heaven.

Actually, I believe we have proof of "free will" in heaven, if the recordings of fallen angels have any real merit. I think the question should be, with free will and being in heaven (which is perfect), why would we choose other than remaining there? One might say the angels chose other, but then the angels were not redeemed like man is. In other words, those redeemed...wouldn't they enter Heaven with a grateful heart? And if so, why would they want to leave, after experiencing first hand, less than heaven during their lives?

just a thought

v/r

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[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Actually, I believe we have proof of "free will" in heaven, if the recordings of fallen angels have any real merit.

Hadn't thought of that.
The following are just some rough thoughts, I would be very interested in your opinion of them, it's more than possible they're complete nonsense.

The "recordings" could have merit and yet not be literal, like the creation accounts.

The recordings are literal, but are not an example of free will. Perhaps though, this isn't the right thread for opening that can of predestined worms.

[taijasi]

Perhaps we should ask ourselves, why did we leave Heaven in the first place? There are those who believe that we came forth, as did Deity (on a far higher turn of the spiral), to garner experience in the lower worlds - at the instruction of God, not despite it. What purpose Deity might have for being here, we may only speculate, but we may safely assume that to provide us a field of experience is only part of it.

Recall - "In Him we live, and move, and have our being."

Namaskar,

taijasi

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Hadn't thought of that.
The following are just some rough thoughts, I would be very interested in your opinion of them, it's more than possible they're complete nonsense.

The "recordings" could have merit and yet not be literal, like the creation accounts.

The recordings are literal, but are not an example of free will. Perhaps though, this isn't the right thread for opening that can of predestined worms.

Well, some argue that stories like the creaton accounts are literal, just not the way they were written (almost as if summarized). In otherwords we're missing alot of information that used to be there, or that simply wasn't included. Likewise the stories of the Angels could be summarized, almost a foot note in the bigger concern of things.

Like God is telling us, "this book as about God and Man, not Angels...focus on the main theme."

In the second part of your question, the only answer I can give on this, is in the Bible and is quite specific. They "rebelled". That strongly implies "free will". What is the first thing we call a child of ours that refuses to listen to us? Willful, strong willed, rebellious. Even though we are in charge of them, they still disobey. These are literal observations that happen everyday, but do we say children do not have free will?

When I was a child my parents would often say "You are to be seen and not heard". That sat so wrong with me, that it gave me fuel to just get into more trouble.

Hope that helps.

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[earl]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Perhaps we should ask ourselves, why did we leave Heaven in the first place? There are those who believe that we came forth, as did Deity (on a far higher turn of the spiral), to garner experience in the lower worlds - at the instruction of God, not despite it. What purpose Deity might have for being here, we may only speculate, but we may safely assume that to provide us a field of experience is only part of it.

Recall - "In Him we live, and move, and have our being."

Namaskar,

taijasi

Some wise soul said long ago-don't remember who-that relative to metaphysical notions, it's psychospiritually better to have uplifting, grand stories or no stories. The notion you give here Andrew is a bit grander than some-one I associate with New Age-but frankly it's never made anymore sense to me that the rather fundamentalist notion of a Deity that creates souls/humans, sets them loose on the world to see if they'll give Jesus and Him/Her/IT their due, and, if not, scratch 1 more soul. The problem that comes in with all "Creation" myths that anthropomorphize a Divine Being is just that-the tendency to project all the variant human qualities, purposes, etc. onto that. If one is a theist that purports that God is in total unqualifiable, unlimitable, then trying to fit notions of God into the confining form of "a Being" is going to create all sorts of difficulties. To envision a Divine "Being" leads to such anthropomorphizing vs. say perhaps envisioning a "Divine Being" in the sense of the very essence and "field" of being-non-being itself.

In the realm of stories or myths-and it is certainly a human thing to do to attempt to pin down Mystery-I also believe the old adage, "we become what we worship." So, for e.g., if we are a Christian whose notions of Reality include the traditional/fundamentalist notions of Jesus/God, we are feeding that portion of us and the world that functions out of fear, anger, guilt, etc. If I were to want to entertain a particularly Christian point of view, one of the Jesus images that seems uplifting to me is the one I always remember seeing as a kid: the picture of him holding a lamb on his shoulders with sheep about him-Jesus the shepherd. Well what about gentle shepherds-they exist to protect the sheep from straying off to be devoured by wolves and to help them find their way home at night. If the Divine represents our deepest essence-our true Home-than the world's shepherds are their to serve that purpose, to remind us how to find our "way back home." While there are alot of scary, nasty "wolves" out there in the sense of things and events, the biggest wolves are always going to be what resides within each of us-the "passions" to use the term favored by the early Christian monks known as the "desert fathers." But I digress-so Andrew if we're throwing out grand notions of why we're here, what about the Judaic notion of Tikkun Olan-repair of the world-that's one I like.

So what's my ramble about? It's simply to encourage you all to either go with "no story" and allow the world and your ongoing journey of discovery of who/what the essence of you and Life is to guide you or to go with a sufficiently large, uplifting story that allows you the space to move about enlarging your sense of connection to Life and beyond. have a good one, earl

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Well, some argue that stories like the creaton accounts are literal, just not the way they were written (almost as if summarized). In otherwords we're missing alot of information that used to be there, or that simply wasn't included. Likewise the stories of the Angels could be summarized, almost a foot note in the bigger concern of things.

Yeah, ok.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

"this book as about God and Man, not Angels...focus on the main theme."

I would agree, thanks for reminding me.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That strongly implies "free will".

I maintain that that "free will" could be illusory.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Even though we are in charge of them, they still disobey. These are literal observations that happen everyday, but do we say children do not have free will?

Though children have a will which is free (to a greater or lesser extent) from their human fathers, this does mean that we necessarily have a will free from our heavenly father.
I know that you are an advocate of free-will and so I know you will not agree with my views, but I ask only this, are the above things possible?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Yeah, ok.
I would agree, thanks for reminding me.

I maintain that that "free will" could be illusory. Though children have a will which is free (to a greater or lesser extent) from their human fathers, this does mean that we necessarily have a will free from our heavenly father.
I know that you are an advocate of free-will and so I know you will not agree with my views, but I ask only this, are the above things possible?

Of course! Life could be simply an illusion. Anything is possible.

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[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Of course! Life could be simply an illusion. Anything is possible.

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Nevermind

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Nevermind

You asked a question. I answered it. It was a simple question (unlike what you posted before). I agreed all things are possible. Are you looking for a come back, or a debate? If so state so...

don't get mad. I don't know what you are asking unless you are specific.

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[cavalier]

Oh dear. Quahom I'm not mad, I just can't be bothered.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Oh dear. Quahom I'm not mad, I just can't be bothered.

hmm, I'll have to remember that.

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[flowperson]

Earl:

I'm just blown away by the many truths that are in your post. It reminds me of many of the points raised by the late Joseph Campbell in his PBS series hosted by Bill Moyers, The Power Of Myth. It may be because we are so cautious not to cross certain boundaries in our storytelling that our civilization's not doing so well these days despite our excess of material comforts.

To me real sacrifice is to set goals that are so lofty that they are very difficult to envision unless we choose to pursue them as possible futures. To me the role of 50's and 60's science fiction in spurring the technological progress that we have made in the last fifty years is not so coincidental. Going to the moon in the sixties was a direct result of JFK's challenge to us to do the difficult things which engender progressive futures. It was a spiritually uplifting process for the country.

Killing people in wars doesn't fit these descriptions as far as I'm concerned, and therein lies the crux of the issue. We have become overbalanced on the side of the scales where causing harm to the world and others in the pursuit of profits has largely obscured the value that comes from positively focussed pursuits.

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Earl:

I'm just blown away by the many truths that are in your post. It reminds me of many of the points raised by the late Joseph Campbell in his PBS series hosted by Bill Moyers, The Power Of Myth. It may be because we are so cautious not to cross certain boundaries in our storytelling that our civilization's not doing so well these days despite our excess of material comforts.

To me real sacrifice is to set goals that are so lofty that they are very difficult to envision unless we choose to pursue them as possible futures. To me the role of 50's and 60's science fiction in spurring the technological progress that we have made in the last fifty years is not so coincidental. Going to the moon in the sixties was a direct result of JFK's challenge to us to do the difficult things which engender progressive futures. It was a spiritually uplifting process for the country.

Killing people in wars doesn't fit these descriptions as far as I'm concerned, and therein lies the crux of the issue. We have become overbalanced on the side of the scales where causing harm to the world and others in the pursuit of profits has largely obscured the value that comes from positively focussed pursuits.

flow....

Easy to consider and dismiss...until soldiers come pounding on your family's door...

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[flowperson]

Ahh yes, the fear factor comes our way. The way things are going in the US that'll probably happen, and IMHO, it will be ours who will likely be doing it because government hasn't done the job it was elected to do very well.

flow....