just pondering

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by AletheiaRivers

Which certainly might be true. But what would be the point of being there?

I have absolutely no idea.

Let us, for argument's sake, say that there would be no point. So what? this is no argument against the existence of such a place, or state of mind, and also no argument about the possibility of our going there.

To my way of thinking, existing without point, and more importantly the need for point, to simply be, would be heaven indeed.

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by cavalier

I have absolutely no idea.

Let us, for argument's sake, say that there would be no point. So what? this is no argument against the existence of such a place, or state of mind, and also no argument about the possibility of our going there.

To my way of thinking, existing without point, and more importantly the need for point, to simply be, would be heaven indeed.

I'm not arguing that such a place doesn't exist. Perhaps it does. And I'm not arguing against our going there. Perhaps we do.

It's just my opinion that a place with no change, with no free will, sounds like hell, not heaven.

[Jeannot]

Originally Posted by AletheiaRivers

You know it!

Maybe we should call you Brunhilde

[wil]

Originally Posted by AletheiaRivers

It's just my opinion that a place with no change, with no free will, sounds like hell, not heaven.

I read somewhere that with all Hollywood's imagination, all their CGI abilities, they create the most fantastic of scenes and sets...but when it comes to heaven we get all white, and clouds...looking forward to that variety aren't we? And then I think of the 'heaven' I've been in laying back groovin to blues or jazz, rock or classical, bouncin to reggae or hip hop....of all the instruments, all the glorious music we have...hollywood's heaven gets a harp...yeah, sittin around in the humidity, and whiteness listenin to harp...gotta agree, not my version.

I see us slippin into the ethers, in between all the electrons and the neutrons, right in our midst, fully realizing the oneness of everything, not seeing but being the strings that hold the theory together, and deciding what to BE next...

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by Jeannot

Maybe we should call you Brunhilde

Oh good god no! Please don't!

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by wil

I see us slippin into the ethers, in between all the electrons and the neutrons, right in our midst, fully realizing the oneness of everything, not seeing but being the strings that hold the theory together, and deciding what to BE next...

Wow. That gave me the chills. Awesome.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by wil

I see us slippin into the ethers, in between all the electrons and the neutrons, right in our midst, fully realizing the oneness of everything, not seeing but being the strings that hold the theory together, and deciding what to BE next...

Surely after "fully realizing the oneness of everything" it would be pretty difficult to experience variety ever again. Since we would be all things at once, choice would become an irrelevance.

[earl]

"Go to heaven for the climate and hell for the company." Mark Twain Earl

[earl]

OK-that Twain thing was just a moment of wise---ness on my part-guess because, though I've certainly pondered these notions a time or two in my life, frankly I think religious systems that tend to emphasize the there & then -e.g. focussing on the hereafter whatever it might be-as opposed to the here & now-inadvertently induce their followers to distance themselves from the very heart of what they seek beating in their very bosoms in each and every moment. One of the things I am attracted to as re Zen is that very orientation. Heck, even those Buddhists at the Buddhist forum I frequent who like to continually exhort their fellow Buddhists to get with the program or they will be reborn as a pig or whatever, are sooooo missing their own point IMO and I find it amusing that some of these same folk would deride Christians in part for those sects which have a "fire and brimstone" orientation.

"For twenty years I've sought the Other.
Now letting go, I fly out of the pit.
What use oneness of mind and body?
These days I only sing la-la-la." Keso Shogaku, 15th c.e.

Have a good one, earl

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by earl

"For twenty years I've sought the Other.
Now letting go, I fly out of the pit.
What use oneness of mind and body?
These days I only sing la-la-la." Keso Shogaku, 15th c.e.

I love that.

Originally Posted by earl

Have a good one

you too earl.

[earl]

hey Cavalier-allow me to add one of my favorite Rumi quotes:

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
and rightdoing there is a field.
I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in the grass
the world is too full to talk about."

earl

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Surely after "fully realizing the oneness of everything" it would be pretty difficult to experience variety ever again. Since we would be all things at once, choice would become an irrelevance.

You know, it's dawned on me as I've read your posts in this thread over again that I should ask you what your view of heaven is.

I've been responding to you assuming that you have the "standard Christian" view of heaven, with people, maybe a city with pearly gates. And everybody up there, talking, interacting, worshipping God, etc ...

What is your view?

[flowperson]

I'm with wil on this one. Groovin' on my fave tunes and sliding around in the ethers among the neutrinos and such is just too delicious a picture for me to pass up.

But like in that film, What Dreams May Come, heaven and the other place are possibly mixed together wherever we end up spiritually. Which means that the confusion in the hereafter may be still there, but different to and for each depending upon our works upon earth. Defending Your Life, by Albert Brooks and with Meryl Streep, is another film that does such a good job of fantasizing about all this in ways that we might readily identify with.

flow....

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by AletheiaRivers

You know, it's dawned on me as I've read your posts in this thread over again that I should ask you what your view of heaven is.

I've been responding to you assuming that you have the "standard Christian" view of heaven, with people, maybe a city with pearly gates. And everybody up there, talking, interacting, worshipping God, etc ...

What is your view?

It's certainly not that, but the fact that you were mistaken is probably due to the way in which I have posted, so no worries.

In truth, I'm not altogether sure. I think that praising God must be a part of it, but as to the manner of that praise....? maybe it is millions and millions of souls united in singing "heavenly" songs, I also have the notion that it's like a drop of water slipping into an ocean, where you would no longer be just a drop of water, but also an inseperable part of everything, at once in touch with the whole and with each part.
Perhaps this doesn't need to be at odds with the "heavenly songs" idea.
Perhaps this drop of water thing doesn't happen, but has always been, and we just realise it.

In any event, I don't see where choice, or the need for a point to existence, comes into it.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by earl

hey Cavalier-allow me to add one of my favorite Rumi quotes:

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
and rightdoing there is a field.
I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in the grass
the world is too full to talk about."

earl