Judging books by covers

[Francis king]

trains are important, though...

oh, and I almost forgot... didnt he come up with that great slogan- work shall set u free..?

[bananabrain]

the one over the gate to auschwitz?

are you trying to be funny?

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Jack Halyard]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

are you trying to be funny?

Amen, BB. I see no reason for flippancy in this discussion.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Francis king

trains are important, though...

oh, and I almost forgot... didnt he come up with that great slogan- work shall set u free..?

Ok this BS is a bit overboard here.

[Francis king]

sorry

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Francis king

yes, I agree with 17th angel here.

okay, towards the end Hitler was a wee bit mad, which I blame his doctor for, but before that, as a statesman, he did a lot of good for the germans (so long as they weren't jews, of course), and that's really all a nation wants from its leaders, he managed to rise from being a struggling poor artist in a slum to be one of the greatest statesmen the world has ever seen, and he did this in much the same way as every other leader does, by working the crowd, by subterfuge and drastic tactics, and, the holocaust aside, he was a pretty good PM... I know that will enrage many ppl here, but, such is life...

I dont think his his antisemitism wasn't a mistake, as being anti- towards any "outgroup" is a popular tactic of most leaders, and is why we have different political parties...

...as George Orwell pointed out in 1984- war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength... if ppl pull together to fight an external enemy, then within ur group there is peace... if u give ppl flags to wave and rules to follow, they feel free, and if u don't know that these jews are being herded onto trucks like cattle and taken away to be gassed u can convince urself that they are being repatriated somewhere sunny...

ppl die every day, in wars, and personally I fail to see what the difference is in killing jews or palestinians or Iraqis or small children...

King, good to see someone on the same "wave length." I agree with alot of your comments too specialy about the doctor... Some of the medication he put Hitler on... heh, that was bound to end in tears.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

so basically, he was a good leader because he got everyone all pulling together and found a useful group of scapegoats? you don't think his anti-semitism was a "mistake"? because it certainly dates back to before he was a "nutty as a fruit loop". have you actually read "mein kampf"? because i have. and based on that, he was bat**** crazy from the start.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Because you're a Jew... And because what he did to the Jews... You're OBVIOUSLY not going to agree with anyone that picks out points that are GOOD about Hitler.... I have a copy of Mein Kampf.. I have alot of Nazi books as I said... I was a Neo Nazi as a teen. Was a kid everyone goes through their phases... and Being a Nazi was one of mine.

[sara[h]ng]

This thread really bugs me. It does not matter that banana is a jew. Anyone in the world, jew or not, could rationally make banana's argument with as much passion. First of all, I don't care what good Hitler did or did not do. The horrible things that he did far, far, far outweigh anything else. 'Any means to an end' is so egocentric - whether that be egocentric towards an individual or country - that it could be called evil. I realize that that could be argued with however, I solidly believe that there is no reason to venerate Hitler for anything. There are plenty of beautiful souls in the world and plenty of places to go to get good ideas. If it was not necessary to remember the Holocaust in order to prevent it from ever happening again, I would want Hitler's name erased from the minds of the populace to destroy the fact that that individual ever lived.

[bananabrain]

It does not matter that banana is a jew. Anyone in the world, jew or not, could rationally make banana's argument with as much passion.

yeah, well, clearly old habits die hard, eh.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by sara[h]ng

This thread really bugs me. It does not matter that banana is a jew. Anyone in the world, jew or not, could rationally make banana's argument with as much passion. First of all, I don't care what good Hitler did or did not do. The horrible things that he did far, far, far outweigh anything else. 'Any means to an end' is so egocentric - whether that be egocentric towards an individual or country - that it could be called evil. I realize that that could be argued with however, I solidly believe that there is no reason to venerate Hitler for anything. There are plenty of beautiful souls in the world and plenty of places to go to get good ideas. If it was not necessary to remember the Holocaust in order to prevent it from ever happening again, I would want Hitler's name erased from the minds of the populace to destroy the fact that that individual ever lived.

Unfortunately bad things stick in the mind/history/news a lot longer than the good things. So I think his name shall never be forgotten.

Also I am curious, any christians here? Do you forgive Hitler for his “trespasses”?

[sara[h]ng]

Though some wouldn't consider me to be so, I am as Christian as I am anything else (since I try to follow the teachings not only of Jesus, but Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, etc. as well..) and to continue with my previous line of thought, there is a difference between forgiving someone and thinking that their life is usable as a positive example to others. I can forgive Hitler while still standing by my previous statements.

As for him not being used as a positive example, I purely mean that in the sense of you thinking of the 'good' that he did for the German people. I don't consider that to be a good scholastic or political example because it is so very immoral. However, I just read a thing in Kahlil Gibran's book, The Prophet, which comments on this. For any of you who did not see the thread on Gibran - 'the prophet' that he writes about is Mohammed. From the chapter, On Crime and Punishment:

"Oftentimes have I heard you speak of one who commits a wrong as though he were not one of you, but a stranger unto you and an intruder upon your world.
But I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you,
So the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also.
And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with silent knowledge of the whole tree,
So the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all.
Like a procession you walk together towards your god-self.
You are the way and the wayfarers.
And when one of you falls down he falls for those behind him, a caution against the stumbling stone.
Ay, and he falls for those ahead of him, who though faster and surer of foot, yet removed not the stumbling stone."

[Jack Halyard]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Unfortunately bad things stick in the mind/history/news a lot longer than the good things. So I think his name shall never be forgotten.

Also I am curious, any christians here? Do you forgive Hitler for his “trespasses”?

17th,
Only God, and God alone, can forgive Hitler of his trespasses. He alone knows of what was in that person’s heart at the moment of his death.
I was born after World War II, and was not immediately affected by the actions of that frustrated corporal, one who invisioned himself Napoleon reincarnated, another Caesar reborn.
No, Angel, I only have read the testimonies of those that were affected by the direct results of the actions of a person determined to turn the world into his own”Valhalla,” where he and only people like him were going to live forever.
So, don’t ask if there are any “christians” here because you know that there are, and if you want to ask anyone beside God if “they forgive Hitler of his trespasses,” then you might want to start with the people that somehow survived these inhumanities.

In Love
In Peace
Jack Halyard

[Francis king]

yes, bananabrain, the difference is a small word called intent... hitler fully intended to wipe out jews, as well as cripples, homosexuals, reactionaries, gypsies and Poles, because he wanted to make germany a nation of superior stock and secondly, because he wanted to unite ppl against a common enemy and jews have always been hated within europe and there wasn't enough muslims or blacks around to make it a really good fight... that might be unsavory, but thats the way it is... he was so effective because germany was in the throes of a severe economic depression, like most of "the west" did at the time, the ppl were unhappy, they wanted more than starvation wages and inferior public services and they were ripe for a revolution, instead of inciting the ppl to revolt and smash the system, he instead gave them what they wanted- a germany they could all be proud of, an enemy to fight, a swanky uniform, and a meal every day... the dissaffected youth could have a gang to join, the mothers wanted good schools and housing, the fathers wanted jobs and food on the table, and how easy it is to do abominable things when u are told that this is for the good of the cuase, that u are the chosen ppl, etc...

yes, today our sophisticated countries ministers intentions are different- they say they want to liberate and assist the poor downtrodden ppl, and we have respectable wars where soldiers carry guns and shoot ppl because they are doing good works, instead of devastating nations for money and power... lets not forget we have soldiers tying ppl up and putting sacks over their heads and urinating on them, lets not forget the crying mothers on the tv who are burying their children because a bomb has regretably gone astray...when we all thought it was acceptable to carry africans from their villages and put them in chains so they could be our slaves we called genocide something else too...

I said- hey, didnt he invent that great slogan work shall set u free because I wanted to annoy u, banana, which was low, but... it annoys me when ppl hang onto this "hitler killed all the jews so he must have been mad" arguement, because if he was really mad he would have been sitting in a psychiatric unit in an insulin coma, surely? It's convienient to dismiss him and say he was mad, but he wasn't the first european minister to use jews as his scapegoat, and no doubt he won't be the last... as u are no doubt aware, there have been many pogroms and much hatred for jews for centuries, and they can't all be brushed off as simply mad, can they? rather, we should acknowledge what Hitler and those like him did, understand how he manipulated the people into accepting this slaughter, so that we can watch out for when it resurfaces again...

the rightwing groups in europe are again gaining ground, we say- oh, they are idiots, or they are peasants on power trips, yet they are growing, steadily, year by year, winning more seats, obtaining more power... we can't ignore them all, say- oh, they are insane, as if we just dismiss them as morons we miss a trick, I think, and if we dismiss them instead of recognising the threat they pose and why their arguemens win votes then all of a sudden we will see our neighbours dragged from their homes in the middle of the night all over again, and there will be nothing u or anyone else will be able to do about it...

except this time round it will probably be muslims and pakistanis who are given the old cyclon b, so the jews should be alright...