Judaism 101

[dauer]

also this link, which is where I located a link to that essay and is another informative page:

S.C.J. FAQ: Section 12.8. Jewish Thought: What do Jews say happens when a person dies? Do Jews believe in reincarnation? In hell or heaven? Purgatory?

[Tao_Equus]

Muslimwoman, Dauer & Bananabrain,

Just a note to say I have been following this thread and to thank you all for increasing my knowledge on the Hebrew Faith several thousand percent.

TE

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by dauer

But before you're born an angel puts its finger to your lips, and you forget it all, so that learning Torah is really in a sense remembering something forgotten. I wonder if the two concepts are linked, that one knows Torah from being present at Sinai, and that is why they are made to forget before birth.

As always thank you so much for your explanations.

Sorry I need the blonde version, I know Sinai as the place Moses received the tablets of stone and a great place to go scuba diving these days, beyond that I am a bit lost. What significance does Sinai have for Jewish people, other than the place Moses received the tablets? I don't mean to make that sound trivial.

Originally Posted by dauer

You might have better luck here:

MyJewishLearning.com: Week of May 14, 2007: Jewish American Heritage Month

I will check out the various links you have given, thankyou. At the moment I shall try to work my way through the one site and then move on to these, so please don't think I am ungrateful.

Originally Posted by dauer

No. It is understood in Judaism that the rightous of all nations have a place in olam haba.

Phew that's a relief.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

although there is very definitely the idea that "gehinnom" involves flames (which are turned off on the sabbath), hence the rather pessimistic rabbi who used to sit on a stove in order to practice for when he got sent there, who was nicknamed "the little chap with the burnt legs".

Hi BB

Oh bless him, I nearly fell off my chair laughing.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

but with that said, it is "judaism 101" - i use it as a starting point, but one should never stop just there. i wouldn't necessary go for myjewishlearning.com unless i already knew about how different jewish opinions work. you need more knowledge to make effective use of it.

Am concerned about brain overload, it is a lot to take in. So I shall work my way through 101 before I move on to the links Dauer gave me. Let's be honest it is hard enough for me to understand all the 'views' in Islam without adding the Jewish ones to the melting pot.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

definitely,

Do you mean we definately worship the same G-d?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

yeah, we're not a dogma religion

Am having a bit of trouble with this one BB. My brain associates Judaism with rather a strict lifestyle and a very 'strong' faith, yet you and Dauer are making it sound a bit, dare I say, 'wishy washy'. Concepts do not seem very concrete or am I just misunderstanding you?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

you could also convert

Would a convert be classed as one of the 'chosen'? Sorry I know how this works in Islam but I always associate Jews with 'birthright'.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Muslimwoman, Dauer & Bananabrain,

Just a note to say I have been following this thread and to thank you all for increasing my knowledge on the Hebrew Faith several thousand percent.

TE

Hi TE

I only ask the questions but glad you're enjoying it. Really pleased to know that others are also here to learn and not just state their own views.

Salaam

[dauer]

What significance does Sinai have for Jewish people, other than the place Moses received the tablets? I don't mean to make that sound trivial.

It is the place of revelation where, traditionally, the whole Torah written and oral is given to the Jewish people and the covenant that was made previously is renewed. It's also the place where the most important basis for the Jewish concept of God appears in Judaism, the description given where Moses sees God's back, as it were, related to mercy and forgiveness. This is the way the passage is generally understood:

"1. HaShem (before the sin)

2. HaShem (after the sin)

(note from dauer: This is because the name used in the Hebrew here, YHWH, which Hashem "the name" is being used as a substitute for represents God's mercy. Elohim represents God's justice.)

3. Kel (power)

(Dauer's note: It's actually El but a k has been added here as a substitute, as is the practice of some outside of prayer. El is a very ambiguous word that can means someone of power, a god, or God.)

4. Rachum (merciful)

5. Chanun (grace)

6. Erech apayim (long-tempered)

7. Rav-chesed (great in mercy)

8. (Rav) emet (great in truth)

9. Notzer chesed l'alafim (keeps mercy for a thousand generations)

10. Nosei avon (bears iniquity)

11 (Nosei) pesha (transgression)

12. (Nosei) chata'a (sin)

(dauer's note: These are the three categories of sin in Judaism.)

13. Nakei (cleanse)."

13-eb

I will check out the various links you have given, thankyou. At the moment I shall try to work my way through the one site and then move on to these, so please don't think I am ungrateful.

I wasn't getting huffy in response to you. This is a continuing dialogue BB and I pick up every now and again and have done so probably for the past few years. It doesn't come up very often, but once in a while it does.

Phew that's a relief

lol.

Am having a bit of trouble with this one BB. My brain associates Judaism with rather a strict lifestyle and a very 'strong' faith, yet you and Dauer are making it sound a bit, dare I say, 'wishy washy'. Concepts do not seem very concrete or am I just misunderstanding you?

Some concepts are more wishy-washy than others, not to say that people's personal beliefs are very variable, but that beliefs from person-to-person are. It may help to understand that when Judaism was first forming in the way it exists today, in the time of the mishna, there were really a lot of Judaisms, and they varied quite a bit. I don't think rabbinic Judaism one out entirely by out-surviving all of them, but also by absorbing a lot of those people over time, even though a lot of those other beliefs eventually faded out. The focus then is on practice and some generally unified ideas about God that leaves more room for flexibility in a person's personal understanding of those ideas. So take the concept of Oneness for example. Some would say that God, being One, is completely separate from the world. When we talk about God's presence, we're not talking about the world. More like the world is a candy wrapping and God is the candy, but the world is also submerged in a vat of chocolate. And from this perspective one could talk about God on a personal level or that God is much more impersonal. One could also say instead that the wrapper is an edible candy. It is God too to some degree. The similarities between the two views that are most important are God's Oneness and that God's truest nature is not accessible to us. Even if the person who sees God as the candy, the vat of chocolate, and the edible wrapper has an experience of all of these things as God and a sublime Oneness, that would still not be an awareness of God's true nature, or the level at which God knows Godself. There is also the concept of the sefirot in kabbalah, which suggests multiplicity within the godhead itself. Today, these are always understood as emanations from God by which God interacts with the world with His true nature beyond them, and sometimes beyond beyond. Some systems of kabbalah work things up very complexly to further disassociate God from what is understood, and that can really be seen as a concerted attempt on their part to maintain the understanding that Godself is unknowable at that most ultimate of levels.

I think one of the things that helped this flexibility to develop is the primary emphasis in Torah and Gemara on action, what is observable. Even looking at the word tzedakah, charity, it has more to do with justice, righting a wrong, than what one feels in their heart. Theology is often transmitted via stories, and stories are much more open to interpretation than dogma. It's also not telling you what to believe in a story. It's hinting at the mechanisms of reality. And a story cannot be understood without the person doing hte understanding, which is where the interpretation and illucidation and flowering over time comes in. Imo it's one of the things that's allowed Judaism to grow so much and change with the times, without getting hung up on things like the world being flat, 7 literal days of creation, an anthropomorphic Deity, etc.

What some more traditional folk would suggest is at least some if not all of these changes aren't really change at all, and were either always there to be found, or always done that way, or according to a particular set of guiding and inflexible principles. My suggestion instead would be that it's happened that way a lot over time, and now we're simply more self-conscious when making change that our own ideas are a part of it. So for people that hold Judaism doesn't change so much, that makes continuing its evolution a lot more difficult.

Within Orthodoxy, you get Rambam's' 13 principles of faith, which were mentioned earlier, that do not become any sort of guiding principle until a ways down the line, and only when understood flexibly, and with some disagreement about them entirely by some other wise guys. Outside of Orthodoxy, some of those are still generally applicable when understood flexibly, and others less so. As I think I said before, it really seems to me like the entire reason to formulate them was to have a response to Islam and Christianity, which are more dogmatic, Jewish peoplehood and commonality being more defined by what we do than what we believe. And that's a bit flexible too, moreso outside of Orthodoxy than within, but with the same general structure for everyone who takes it seriously.

Would a convert be classed as one of the 'chosen'? Sorry I know how this works in Islam but I always associate Jews with 'birthright'.

Yes. There is no difference. Some people understand this by saying that the convert had a Jewish soul to begin with, and the soul just found its way home. I really think that at its root, it's got more to do with the tribal nature of Judaism. When someone converts, they're joining a new people, accepting upon themselves all of their history, everything associated with them. The one thing a convert could not be is a kohein, because that's inherited. But I couldn't be a kohein either. My father isn't a kohein. If he were, I would be automatically. There's a custom in Judaism. Hebrew names are the person's name followed by "son of ____." Converts will sometimes take on the name "son of Avraham" which is to say that they may not be physical descendants, but on a spiritual or metaphysical level they're adopted into the Jewish family.

I think the focus maybe should be placed less on "birthright" than on "covenant." If someone's already in the covenant, then it's their birthright. But if someone's not, they can still be cut into it. And with the way the world is today, everyone's really a Jew-by-choice anyway. It would be very easy for me if I wanted to, to leave Judaism, as others have. After a number of generations of not being Jewish my line would no longer be considered Jewish by the Jewish community. I guess that's a bit like voiding a contract.

Dauer

[Muslimwoman]

Absolutely fascinating Dauer, thank you so much.

In the Jewish mind, what was the covenant with G-d that the Jews broke? I only know this from the Islamic perspective.

I am off to do more reading, I shall keep you busy for a while I am afraid.

Salaam

[dauer]

In the Jewish mind, what was the covenant with G-d that the Jews broke? I only know this from the Islamic perspective.

A better word might be violated. Broken to me sounds more permanent. It's understood to be an eternal covenant with the Jewish people. I guess my answer to your question would be: at what time? In the Tanach it seems one of the really big problems is avodah zarah, foreign worship/service which is what you'd call idolatry and other things related to it.

I am off to do more reading, I shall keep you busy for a while I am afraid.

lol. That's no problem. This part of the forum is usually pretty quiet. *brushes away some cobwebs*

Dauer

[bananabrain]

I know Sinai as the place Moses received the tablets of stone and a great place to go scuba diving these days, beyond that I am a bit lost. What significance does Sinai have for Jewish people, other than the place Moses received the tablets? I don't mean to make that sound trivial.

bear in mind that the whole peninsula is called "the sinai". the mountain generally known as "mt sinai", where the monastery is, is not 100% certain
to actually be the mountain concerned. i slept the night on top of it nearly 20 years ago and got nothing but cold feet, although truth be told my mind probably wasn't on Revelation at the time, but on girls.

Do you mean we definitely worship the same G!D?

yes.

Am having a bit of trouble with this one BB. My brain associates Judaism with rather a strict lifestyle and a very 'strong' faith, yet you and Dauer are making it sound a bit, dare I say, 'wishy washy'. Concepts do not seem very concrete or am I just misunderstanding you?

the short version of what dauer said is that we are very big on orthopraxy, whereas what goes on inside people's heads is far harder to police, so generally we haven't really bothered with that.

Would a convert be classed as one of the 'chosen'? Sorry I know how this works in Islam but I always associate Jews with 'birthright'.

a convert is 100% kosher in every respect. there is only one thing i think they are not allowed to do, which is for a converted woman to marry a kohen (priest) which is because this is a similar status to being divorced, i believe. being jewish is so much of a sociological thing as well as a religious thing that it is the lifestyle that really determines whether you fit in.

Originally Posted by dauer

This is a continuing dialogue BB and I pick up every now and again and have done so probably for the past few years. It doesn't come up very often, but once in a while it does.

this is because i am a foaming beardy fundamentalist and dauer is a bleeding-heart liberal hippy layabout with some funny ideas. hur hur hur. he does keep me on my toes of course and he is welcome for dinner at mine any time he visits london.

In the Jewish mind, what was the covenant with G!D that the Jews broke? I only know this from the Islamic perspective.

like dauer says, G!D has undertaken to never let the Covenant lapse, although we have failed to fulfil our end of the deal many times. that's part of G!D being All-Merciful and Forgiving of Transgression. the Covenant, however, remains.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

this is because i am a foaming beardy fundamentalist and dauer is a bleeding-heart liberal hippy layabout with some funny ideas. hur hur hur. he does keep me on my toes of course and he is welcome for dinner at mine any time he visits london.

lolol.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

this is because i am a foaming beardy fundamentalist and dauer is a bleeding-heart liberal hippy layabout with some funny ideas. hur hur hur. he does keep me on my toes of course and he is welcome for dinner at mine any time he visits london.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Ahahahahaha!

Me like that!

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

bear in mind that the whole peninsula is called "the sinai". the mountain generally known as "mt sinai", where the monastery is, is not 100% certain to actually be the mountain concerned.

I know the sinai quite well but I still don't understand the significance for Jews. Is it religious (ie the place of revelation) or an historical land issue? Or perhaps a bit of both?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

a convert is 100% kosher in every respect. there is only one thing i think they are not allowed to do, which is for a converted woman to marry a kohen (priest) which is because this is a similar status to being divorced, i believe. being jewish is so much of a sociological thing as well as a religious thing that it is the lifestyle that really determines whether you fit in.

Erm similar staus to being divorced? How so? This would certainly suggest to an outsider to be a 'lessening' of status for a female convert.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

this is because i am a foaming beardy fundamentalist and dauer is a bleeding-heart liberal hippy layabout with some funny ideas. hur hur hur. he does keep me on my toes of course and he is welcome for dinner at mine any time he visits london.

Hee, hee. Wouldn't the world be boring if we were all the same!

Originally Posted by bananabrain

like dauer says, G!D has undertaken to never let the Covenant lapse, although we have failed to fulfil our end of the deal many times. that's part of G!D being All-Merciful and Forgiving of Transgression. the Covenant, however, remains.

So what is the covenant the Jewish people have with G-d (or is that a rude question?).

Salaam

[dauer]

I know the sinai quite well but I still don't understand the significance for Jews. Is it religious (ie the place of revelation) or an historical land issue? Or perhaps a bit of both?

Har Sinai, mount sinai, is the place where the revelation to the entire Jewish people happened, along with that being the receiving of Torah, making it a religiously significant place. We don't however really know which mountain it's supposed to be attributed to.

So what is the covenant the Jewish people have with G-d (or is that a rude question?).

It really has more to do with the mitzvot, the commandments. Those are the terms of the contract. And now it is my turn to site jewfaq:

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

However the way they're understood or treated by different flavors of Judaism varies a bit. It's not so much about being priviledged in any way as it is in having extra responsibilities.

Dauer

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by dauer

Har Sinai, mount sinai, is the place where the revelation to the entire Jewish people happened, along with that being the receiving of Torah, making it a religiously significant place. We don't however really know which mountain it's supposed to be attributed to.

Shalom Dauer

So is it still an issue for Jewish people that Egypt has control over this area and of course turning it into a huge ongoing western orgy?

Originally Posted by dauer

It really has more to do with the mitzvot, the commandments. Those are the terms of the contract. And now it is my turn to site jewfaq:

hee, hee BB will be so pleased you quoted that site. OMG you have 613 commandments, you would have to be a Saint not to break some. Oh have some good questions now:

Do the Jewish people have Saints?

What constitutes blasphemy for a Jew?

10. To imitate His good and upright ways. I assume this is talking about G-d's ways? If so are these set out in the Torah?

Not to lay down a stone for worship (Lev. 26:1) (CCN161). Please can you explain this one.

To lend to an alien at interest (Deut. 23:21) According to tradition, this is mandatory (affirmative). Am I reading this correctly, you must charge interest if lending money to gentiles?

That the woman suspected of adultery shall be dealt with as prescribed in the Torah (Num. 5:30) (affirmative). Is this stoning? What of the man suspected of adultery? Are witnesses required?

Re forbidden sexual relationships. Do you ever wonder why there are so many "do not commit sodomy with...", when later it states "do not commit sodomy with any male"?

Gosh the similarities with Islam are striking, yet the few differences are quite apparent. I got to 106, will do 106 - 200 later or you will have sore fingers from typing.

Originally Posted by dauer

However the way they're understood or treated by different flavors of Judaism varies a bit. It's not so much about being priviledged in any way as it is in having extra responsibilities.

I always understood it as extra responsibilities rather than privilages - how can anyone with 613 commandments be deemed to have extra privilages?

Salaam
MW

[dauer]

So is it still an issue for Jewish people that Egypt has control over this area and of course turning it into a huge ongoing western orgy?

I've never heard anyone make a fuss over it.

hee, hee BB will be so pleased you quoted that site.

I quote from it regularly, although primarily just the list of the 613 mitzvot there. I just don't think it makes a good general resource because it's so partisan and biased.

Do the Jewish people have Saints?

It depends on what you mean by saint. A holy person? A rightous person? An intermediary?

What constitutes blasphemy for a Jew?

It is not a narrow definition. The 613 mitzvot alone are in many ways like cliff notes to a much larger discussion that continues in nach, the mishna, gemara, and later texts, continuing through today and into the future.

An example of blasphemy would be for example a spiritual practice that attempts to go around G!d's back, claiming that power for yourself.

10. To imitate His good and upright ways. I assume this is talking about G-d's ways? If so are these set out in the Torah?

For example G!d is forgiving. We should be forgiving. G!d clothes the naked. We should clothe the naked.

Not to lay down a stone for worship (Lev. 26:1) (CCN161). Please can you explain this one.

Not entirely sure about this one but BB will know. I think it has to do with a type of stone monument that it was sometimes the practice to make. One of the interesting things that comes up about that is that Abraham makes these monuments. That particular mitzvah hadn't been given yet. But later on it is forbidden.

To lend to an alien at interest (Deut. 23:21) According to tradition, this is mandatory (affirmative). Am I reading this correctly, you must charge interest if lending money to gentiles?

I forget the reason behind it. BB can answer that one. I remember reading a discussion about it once.

That the woman suspected of adultery shall be dealt with as prescribed in the Torah (Num. 5:30) (affirmative). Is this stoning? What of the man suspected of adultery? Are witnesses required?

Some of the Torah is a bit patriarchal. The legal system that develops in the gemara is fairly complex though and tries to curb the more violent leanings of the Torah by making it very difficult to actually get that type of stuff to happen. And right now there is no sanhedrin so these laws concerning types of punishment and Jewish jurispudence are not in effect. What this actually refers to is a very unique procedure, which I'm guessing is the reason it doesn't mention it there. You can read about it here:

sotah, the ordeal of the suspected unfaithful wife

Re forbidden sexual relationships. Do you ever wonder why there are so many "do not commit sodomy with...", when later it states "do not commit sodomy with any male"?

I hadn't thought about it. Mostly I see those passages that deny the holiness of homosexual sexual activity, or any consensual adult sexual activity for that matter, as something that's very much in need of being transcended. But there is an idea that the Torah doesn't repeat itself for emphasis, because it's already emphasized, so if something seems to be repeating something else, it's really saying something new.

how can anyone with 613 commandments be deemed to have extra privilages?

I think those who come to that conclusion generally do under false assumptions, like that one must be Jewish to be in good with the Big Guy, or to get to heaven, and that we won't accept converts along with those ideas. Or that being Jewish makes someone better, which the talmud clearly rejects, stating that G!d cares less about what someone was born as than He does about their actions.

Dauer