Judaism 101

[bananabrain]

ah, zikr... if it hadn't been for zikr and sufi muslims i might not be as religious as i am. that was part of what started it all off for me, you know. i always got the intellectual bit, but never the emotional/aesthetic/sensory bit until i saw how sufis could get high on G!D through music. that's one of the reasons i have such a soft spot for islam. but most modern-type niggunim i just find kind of embarrassing - i'll make a small exception for neshama carlebach who i gigged with once (a small claim to fame) and her father's stuff but i just can't stick the debbie friedmans of this world at any price. bunch of second-rate lai-la-lai merchants who wouldn't know a decent gig if it stuck a firework up their bums. i'll make another small exception for the great DF herself, who is quite a mesmirising performer, having also spent time on stage with her, although admittedly it was with my friend the hippy inventing the now widely-disseminated actions to a song called "i am a latke". give me umm kulthum any day.

Originally Posted by muslimwoman

I am afraid the only history of the Jewish tribes I have comes from Islamic history, which paints them very much as fibbers and traitors

and if it's true, then they were very poor jews indeed. but, as you say, the victors write the story. there's no jewish record of this at any rate, in comparison to our records of the roman persecutions.

Sorry, maybe I am just a bit thick but I don't get it. We know that the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was tolerant of the other Abrahamic religions, so I can't see why everything has to be interpreted the way is it now.

i don't think the problem is with muhammad exactly, i think it's with the compilers of the hadeeth and 'ayaat, to say nothing of the supposedly modern interpreters such as al-qaradawi. i know what book you'd like to read - karen armstrong's "the battle for G!D" which is a comparative history of fundamentalism. i also recommend her "a history of G!D" as a fantastic piece of comparative religious writing.

It was my understanding that you have Torah scrolls that go back centuries before Islam was ever heard of, so a simple comparison to modern copies of the scrolls should show they are unchanged.

you'd think that, wouldn't you, but they go on things like the documentary hypothesis, may its name be erased, as well as things like the sentence in jeremiah which refers to the "lying tongue of the scribes", although the fact that the aforementioned sentence seems to have escaped said scribes apparently doesn't cause comment. or it could be an argument about how we interpret, we've had enough of those i can tell you - look up the karaites and the samaritans for a start.

I meant scrap his message, you know "ok lads I've changed my mind and decided to go in a different direction".

then how does one explain the flood? this can only really be reconciled by understanding what we mean by a "brit" or covenant - which is an agreement between two parties. G!D Agreed not to destroy the world again, as well as implementing abraham's "covenant between the parts" and the covenant of the Revelation of the Torah.

I don't think we can say new = better unless the new message is given to the same group of people.

well, a universal message is given to all people by definition, which implies it includes even people who had earlier revelations - i think that's the logic. so, christ didn't come to save everyone apart from the jews, but everyone - at least if you go for supercessionism rather than what is called "dual covenant" theology. talk to a few baha'is or ahmadis and you'll soon work out what i mean.

I haven't read anything that suggests the Prophet Mohammad travelled to where 'big' Jewish scholars would have been. Perhaps I am assuming Judaism is like the Catholic church, so he would need to go to the Vatican to be 'worthy' of being in the records

that's not what i mean (although people believe he went to jerusalem, don't they?) - i mean that all the big jewish centres of scholarship corresponded with each other to share knowledge, experiences and interpretations of religious law. those records are pretty well preserved. you'd need to look in the works of sa'adia or hai ga'on, although they are far later than muhammad - there were earlier ge'onim.

Saudi set up the sharia system in Pakistan and the Hudood law has been replaced there now, so not a resounding success.

i think it's been repealed, but i think it's still operating in the tribal areas and, as you should know, the shari'a courts are very much up and running - whether in parallel with regular law, i don't know, but either way, the version being taught is very much saudi-influenced.

I think, but only my humble view, that Saudi is losing it's stranglehold on Muslim people. Whenever I point out something stupid the Saudi's have said, the people here laugh and say how crazy they are and that is in a Muslim country, so even here they are seen as extreme views.

i really hope you're right, although people consider al-qaradawi, for example, to be moderate, whereas from my PoV there's not much difference between him and some foaming salafi obscurantist.

Do Jews have anything similar to the sharia law?

uncannily so. it's called halakha, from the word meaning "way" or the verb "to go".

get the arm waving, ranting version from the Arabs, so was interested in your take on the situation.

oh, believe me, we have our own versions of that, but you hopefully won't hear that from me and dauer even though we disagree about a helluvalot.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

bb,

*waves arms and rants*

I wasn't talking about the newer niggunim. Some of them are okay, but I generally prefer some of the older stuff, especially the really slow meditative niggunim. The modern ones are generally so simplified. Sometimes it works, but other times it doesn't. I do like some of the modern chants made using traditional language, even though they're often very repetitive and lack a lot of melody too. R. Shlomo's b'shem hashem always gets me. And there's a healing chant based from Moses' prayer for Miriam when she had tzara'at that I find very powerful in a group setting. Also some chants built around birchot hashachar. But there are others I'm not as fond of. Like there's a melody to go with ilu finu that to me removes the punch of what the words are saying, even with the multiple parts harmonizing together. I also like the attempt to fit English translations to the melodies of the hebrew, and when reading Torah in English to improvise the Hebrew cantillation. My sense of the text when doing that is different than if I were to read a Torah translation normally. It's kinda like the guys who when explaining gemara in English still continue that melody used with the Hebrew and Aramaic, which I also think is beautiful practice.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

I generally prefer some of the older stuff, especially the really slow meditative niggunim. The modern ones are generally so simplified. Sometimes it works, but other times it doesn't. I do like some of the modern chants made using traditional language, even though they're often very repetitive and lack a lot of melody too. R. Shlomo's b'shem hashem always gets me.

what bothers me - and this is just as true for r. shlomo as for other modern tunes, is that they nearly always violate the scansion and pronunciation of the hebrew text, forcing unnatural lengthenings, stresses and repetitions in the attempt to shoehorn an ancient poetic form into the 4/4 and 2/4 rhythms comfortable to the modern, eurocentric, rock n'roll-trained ear. when was the last time you heard something in 7/8, 5/8, 9/8 or even 6/8? when was the last time you heard a hemiola (2/3) or an irregular beat? the rhythm ought to serve the pasuk, not the other way round. that's why sephardic stuff, particularly 'eidoth mizrah stuff works so much better, because people are used to hearing turkish and arabic music which fits the rhythms of hebrew so much better. even balkan rhythms from places like bulgaria feel more natural. it's why the "tanu rabannan" melody works. and chasidut is one of the worst offenders in this respect.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

Yeah I know what you mean. I've heard a few different versions of psalm 150, and in each one some of the words are pronounced differently. I actually think I've heard the word neshamah pronounced three different ways in order to fit a melody and you make a good point. I'm also fond myself of irregular beats anyway. Aren't some of the prayers in the liturgy in iambic pentameter though or something similar? Is that just some of the stuff that was added later?

Dauer

[bananabrain]

actually think I've heard the word neshamah pronounced three different ways in order to fit a melody and you make a good point.

the thing is, it is, ironically, actually quite simple. look for where the maqaf (accenty thing that looks like a | ) is under the letter. there's your stress. find a siddur that distinguishes between the open shva and the closed one (the difference between HIQ-e-ThaH and HIQ-ThaH) and take account of the dagesh, in your case the difference between B and V, K and Kh and T and S (if you're a traditional ashky pronouncer). double letters (ie those with a dagesh) should be harder. and the ta'amim should also indicate the stress. just try the first paragraph of the shem'a with attention to absolute precision in the pronunciation and stress. it's a most rewarding experience.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i don't think the problem is with muhammad exactly, i think it's with the compilers of the hadeeth and 'ayaat, to say nothing of the supposedly modern interpreters such as al-qaradawi. i know what book you'd like to read - karen armstrong's "the battle for G!D" which is a comparative history of fundamentalism. i also recommend her "a history of G!D" as a fantastic piece of comparative religious writing.

I hate to say this but I rather like al-Qaradawi. I know he has a totally unacceptable view on the Israel issue but to be honest this is the blind hatred all Egyptians are born with. That is no excuse for his view, I am just saying I know where it comes from. When you read what he says about Jews you see that his hatred is targeted toward the land issue and not Jews as a nation of people. He has many forward thinking ideas and whilst he has some bad ideas, overall it is thinking like his that will bring much needed change to Islam.

I just love Karen Armstrong, I have the History of G-d and refer to it often. I haven't heard of The Battle for G-d (english books are a bit hard to get here) but shall try to get hold of it.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

then how does one explain the flood?

Personally I explain it as a punishment from G-d. I do not see it as G-d deciding He had got the message wrong and so He started over and came up with a new message.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

that's not what i mean (although people believe he went to jerusalem, don't they?)

This comes from the Night Journey of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), however as with all things Islamic there are different views. If you are interested there is a short article suggesting the journey was from Mecca to Medina, not Mecca to Jerusalem:

Special Dispatch Series - No. 564

Of course I live in Egypt and this is from the Egyptian Ministry of Culture, so could easily be an attempt to draw any feeling of attachment away from Jerusalem. There are some very good points in the article including the issue of where was the al-Aqsa mosque.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i think it's been repealed, but i think it's still operating in the tribal areas and, as you should know, the shari'a courts are very much up and running - whether in parallel with regular law, i don't know, but either way, the version being taught is very much saudi-influenced.

Sorry I wasn't suggesting things are all hunky-dory there now. I was just suggesting that anyone wishing to introduce a new Islamic state would have that failure to contend with. Had it been a roaring success then we may have had more to worry about.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i really hope you're right, although people consider al-qaradawi, for example, to be moderate, whereas from my PoV there's not much difference between him and some foaming salafi obscurantist.

For a traditional Muslim scholar he is moderate but does have some extremist views based on his cultural background. What I meant though was that the strength of Islam will move from the middle east and become more global, as the ummah grows in the west. This will take time but I believe will inevitably water down some of the more extremist views that come out of the middle east.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Guys

Just a quick question and of little significance other than curiosity.

What is the significance of the black strap Jewish men wrap around their arms while they pray?

Salaam

[dauer]

It's not the straps so much as the boxes the straps hold on, or more particularly the texts inside. That type of amulet goes way back, that style of securing with leather straps. In the Jewish case it houses some pieces of parchment with passages on it, and is linked to some somewhat ambiguous passages in Torah. More info.... here:

Tefillin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dauer

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by dauer

It's not the straps so much as the boxes the straps hold on, or more particularly the texts inside. That type of amulet goes way back, that style of securing with leather straps. In the Jewish case it houses some pieces of parchment with passages on it, and is linked to some somewhat ambiguous passages in Torah. More info.... here:

Tefillin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dauer

Hi Dauer

Thanks, that clears that one up. It seems to an outsider a lovely way to remmber G-d every day.

Some more questions if I may.

Is the Talmud like the Muslim Sunnah but still in oral form?

In Judaism 101 site it refers in one place to prayers 2 times a day and in another place to something to be recited 3 times a day during prayers. How many times a day are Jews obliged to pray?

From Judaism 101 I have the impression that Jews do not believe in such definitive places as heaven and hell (ie an actual physical place) - please correct me if I have this one wrong. It then goes on to say the souls of all Jews were in existence at the Giving of the Torah. This would suggest a period of 'waiting to be born' - so where did you wait? Sorry that is very badly phrased as it assumes a physical place but I am not sure how best to ask the question, hope you understand what I mean.

It says in Olam Ha-Ba the world will recognise the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d and the Jewish religion to be the only true religion. Do Jews believe that the G-d I worship is the same G-d or that I worship a false G-d? Also I am unable to be a Jew, I was not born a Jew but a gentile, so I could never belong to the Jewish religion - so does this also exclude me from the life after this one and from worshipping the true G-d in this life?

Thanks for your patience with my questions.

Salaam

[dauer]

Is the Talmud like the Muslim Sunnah but still in oral form?

The Talmud is actually written. The traditional understanding is generally that an Oral Torah which has been passed down since Sinai is contained within and is the basis for the Talmud, in part supplying the tools the rest of the Talmud uses, but not that they're identical. The Talmud contains two parts, mishna and gemara. The mishna was compiled I think around 200 CE and depending on who you're asking, the gemara sometime between I think 600 and 1000 CE. Within a Jewish context, you really can't understand the Torah without the gemara, that is to say, if you only went by the Torah and not the gemara, you might arrive at a number of practices and beliefs, but you wouldn't arrive at Judaism as it is today. The Karaites are a group that reject the oral torah and so, for example, they mix milk and meat, but they're much more scrupulous about additives that contain those things expressly forbidden. In the Talmud you get some concepts that allow for more flexibility, like the idea that one thing can become another thing in certain circumstances, or that if something unkosher were added to food accidentally, less than a certain pecentage, and it didn't change the flavor, it would still be kosher. Of course that implies tasting it to find out.

In Judaism 101 site it refers in one place to prayers 2 times a day and in another place to something to be recited 3 times a day during prayers. How many times a day are Jews obliged to pray?

Often it's more like two times, because mincha and ma'ariv often get combined. There are three prayer services on a normal day. On some special days there can sometimes be more.

From Judaism 101 I have the impression that Jews do not believe in such definitive places as heaven and hell (ie an actual physical place) - please correct me if I have this one wrong.

That is somewhat correct, and there's less worry about the afterlife in general. It's more this-worldly. I mean, there's no concept of hell as it exists in Islam and Christianity. It's more like purgatory. And we don't have any concrete ideas about what might happen in either of those places. I think we could say more definitively that it's not considered something that's out there, part of the physical world, spatially. But that they may be a part of reality is certainly a Jewish idea.

It then goes on to say the souls of all Jews were in existence at the Giving of the Torah. This would suggest a period of 'waiting to be born' - so where did you wait?

That's a good question. And there's probably more than one answer. There is the idea of reincarnation in Judaism, and at the very least, if not every person was physically there, their soul root could have been. There's also a story that before birth, you know the whole Torah. But before you're born an angel puts its finger to your lips, and you forget it all, so that learning Torah is really in a sense remembering something forgotten. I wonder if the two concepts are linked, that one knows Torah from being present at Sinai, and that is why they are made to forget before birth.

It says in Olam Ha-Ba the world will recognise the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d and the Jewish religion to be the only true religion.

I've never been fond of jewfaq. It often tries to simplify something that's really not monolithic into something more definite and concrete, when a lot of Judaism just doesn't have definite answers. You might have better luck here:

MyJewishLearning.com: Week of May 14, 2007: Jewish American Heritage Month

If you look under special topics there's also a list of primers, that just cover the very basics, with room to explore further if you're interested in a particular subject.

Do Jews believe that the G-d I worship is the same G-d or that I worship a false G-d?

Most generally the same. Otherwise there wouldn't be permission for Jews to pray in mosques. But even Churches, where traditionally Jews aren't supposed to pray, the Christian God is considered the same. It's a bit easier in Judaism to say that, I think, where not everyone within the religion views God the same way anyway. Some people are really rationalist. Some people are really mystical. Some see God as Unmoved Mover, some see God as Everything and More. And lots of in-betweensviews. And now we also have forms of Judaism that are completely naturalist and what-have-you. Theology isn't very concrete for us.

Also I am unable to be a Jew, I was not born a Jew but a gentile, so I could never belong to the Jewish religion - so does this also exclude me from the life after this one and from worshipping the true G-d in this life?

No. It is understood in Judaism that the rightous of all nations have a place in olam haba. And the brit with Jews is understood to be for the Jewish people. The traditional answer would be that everyone else is under the brit with Noah.

MyJewishLearning.com - Ideas & Belief: The Noahide Laws

Shalom u'vrachah.

--Dauer

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by dauer

The mishna was compiled I think around 200 CE and depending on who you're asking, the gemara sometime between I think 600 and 1000 CE.

i'd say the gemara was redacted by ravina and rav ashi more between 500-600, otherwise the muslims would probably have been mentioned. for the period after that, you're really talking about the ga'onim of babylon/iraq that i mentioned earlier.

I mean, there's no concept of hell as it exists in Islam and Christianity. It's more like purgatory.

although there is very definitely the idea that "gehinnom" involves flames (which are turned off on the sabbath), hence the rather pessimistic rabbi who used to sit on a stove in order to practice for when he got sent there, who was nicknamed "the little chap with the burnt legs".

That's a good question. And there's probably more than one answer. There is the idea of reincarnation in Judaism, and at the very least, if not every person was physically there, their soul root could have been.

think of it like the law of conservation of energy, but instead of physical energy, it's spiritual energy - souls are not atomic, they can be subdivided and recombined; it's like spiritual DNA.

But before you're born an angel puts its finger to your lips, and you forget it all, so that learning Torah is really in a sense remembering something forgotten. I wonder if the two concepts are linked, that one knows Torah from being present at Sinai, and that is why they are made to forget before birth.

again, if you consider the conservation of energy, that is a logical consequence.

I've never been fond of jewfaq. It often tries to simplify something that's really not monolithic into something more definite and concrete, when a lot of Judaism just doesn't have definite answers.

but with that said, it is "judaism 101" - i use it as a starting point, but one should never stop just there. i wouldn't necessary go for myjewishlearning.com unless i already knew about how different jewish opinions work. you need more knowledge to make effective use of it.

Most generally the same.[G!D]

definitely, although the stupider and more ignorant can often make the mistake. even rambam, who was no fan of muslims in general, considered islam to be bona fide monotheism whilst considering christianity to be polytheistic and therefore idolatrous - he's not the last word on that, of course, despite what some people seem to be taught.

Theology isn't very concrete for us.

yeah, we're not a dogma religion - the nearest we can get is stuff like rambam's 13 principles, which are really only the 13 atomic axioms of judaism which can only be supported by faith rather than logical reasoning or deduction. halakhah (ie matters of correct practice) must be resolved either one way or another. however, aggadah (ie matters of speculative theology, legend, mystical insight or illustrative analogy and symbolism) can be understood many different ways, there is no obligation to come up with an authoritative statement of faith.

Originally Posted by muslimwoman

Also I am unable to be a Jew, I was not born a Jew but a gentile, so I could never belong to the Jewish religion

you could also convert, but we would be prohibited from encouraging you to do so - there's no benefit to you, you see, because as dauer said you get your portion in 'olam ha-ba by keeping the 7 noahide laws, whereas if you became a jew, you'd have another 606 laws to keep. G!D doesn't Hold with making things more difficult than they already are or overcomplicating things. it is humans that do that.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

but with that said, it is "judaism 101" - i use it as a starting point, but one should never stop just there. i wouldn't necessary go for myjewishlearning.com unless i already knew about how different jewish opinions work. you need more knowledge to make effective use of it.

It's true myjewishlearning presents a more complex and multi-faceted view of Judaism, but imo it's better than exposing someone to a lot of half-truths and generalizations stated in a rather matter-of-factly tone, especially when the amount to which someone is going to investigate into things is in question. The variety of information available on mjl helps to raise questions about black and white thinking about Judaism. And myjewishlearning has been developing more organized content to go over the basics, like the listing of primers:

MyJewishLearning.com: Introduction to Judaism

While the primers themselves do sometimes take an approach more informed by developments in archeology, detached textual analysis, and other modern approaches in the understanding of Judaism as history and as a living religion, unlike jewfaq if you choose to continue beyond the primers it offers more varied and nuanced voices in the matter, that address a much larger spectrum of jewish thought and practice without ever leaving the website, and with pointers to all of the relevant material on the matter, included guided journeys through the pages on the side in increasing levels of depth and complexity.

They also have other areas of interest, like a full section on interfaith issues:

MyJewishLearning.com: Interfaith Index

A section on denominations, which would probably be a decent starting point or near-starting point if one wants to be able to better tell us apart, understand the totality and, as you pinpoint quite accurately, make better use of the site:

MyJewishLearning.com: Denominations Index

Just seems a lot more helpful to give someone a more well-rounded place to start that's not making any claims to one particular voice for Judaism than to suggest something that's very partisan, one-sided, and limited in scope. Of course even as you probably disagree with some of the ideas on the website, it's much closer to your views than some of the stuff on mjl and leads people to first be exposed to more Orthodox ideas, at least the ones the author of the website most favors or is at least more accepting of. And as a limited approach to judaism, it's certainly better than the stuff chabad generally puts out, which is sometimes much more partisan, and true for an even greater minority of the Jewish people. As I see it though, even wikipedia's Jewish sections are a better source of information:

Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It even has a very large page on Islam and Judaism that both addresses mutual history and the ways in which beliefs are similar and different:

Islam and Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are of course, issues with wikipedia, generalizations for example, many of them lacking a countertext that even indirectly addresses the matter. And in that way it's biased both toward the more orthodox views and the more liberal views, depending primarily on who the major editors have been of particular pieces.

Dauer

[Prober]

Originally Posted by dauer

There's also a story that before birth, you know the whole Torah. But before you're born an angel puts its finger to your lips, and you forget it all, so that learning Torah is really in a sense remembering something forgotten.

Isn't there a story that birth defects come from babies that wrestle with the angel so as not to have Torah removed (forgotten)?

[Prober]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

although there is very definitely the idea that "gehinnom" involves flames (which are turned off on the sabbath)

Are you kidding? That's a cool (literally) concept - even "hell" rests on the sabbath.

[dauer]

Isn't there a story that birth defects come from babies that wrestle with the angel so as not to have Torah removed (forgotten)?

Not certain. There very well may be. As much as the legal literature of Judaism is a vast sea, the non-legal literature is also a vast sea. The indent above our lips is attributed to the angel who silences.

Are you kidding? That's a cool (literally) concept - even "hell" rests on the sabbath.

There a really in-depth review of jewish ideas about the afterlife as well as reincarnation I came across once. Let me see if I can find it. Despite being from Renewal, it's probably more in-depth than most anything else I've seen on the web, and of course, this is only one way of looking at it:

Judaism and Reincarnation

It looks like it's a different host, and possibly slightly abridged, but still good.

Dauer