Jewish gays ?

[Claff]

Greetings,

I've found a dating website (gay.co.il) for that kind of people.

what is the attitude towards them in judaism?
I know that some families ban their children, and they have trouble getting married.

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by Claff

Greetings,

I've found a dating website (gay.co.il) for that kind of people.

what is the attitude towards them in judaism?
I know that some families ban their children, and they have trouble getting married.

It runs the gamut, just like any other religion.

On the accepting side are the more left-wing movements (as would probably be expected). For example, the Central Conference of American Rabbis (Reform Judaism's rabbinical organisation) a few years ago voted in favor of gay commitment ceremonies and gay s'micha (rabbinical ordination). Reconstruction Judaism's view is generally the same as Reform's. The leader of Liberal Judaism in the UK announced sometime last year that they would develop a liturgy for gay marriage.

Conservative Judaism is having trouble developing a coherent position on the subject. Like issue of female s'micha in the 80s, it's an issue that if it's not handled well could cause a schism in the movement, something the Rabbinical Assmebly and the United Synagogue certainly don't want. There is a group of gay-friendly Conservative rabbis called the Keshet Rabbis and a series of organisations for synagogues and cantors associated with Keshet.

Modern Orthodox doesn't consider homosexuality to be an acceptable practice, though there is one openly gay MO rabbi, by the name of Steven Greenberg. Generally, homosexuality is regarded more like a mental illness than some sort of depraved sin. It is sinful, but it's not something the person always has conscious control over, at least, that's the view I hear most from MO. Chabad Lubavitch's position is usually the same as MO. Other Charedi organisations generally condemning of homosexuality.



Being a lesbian, and a potential proselyte, it's a subject that affects me personally.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Karimarie

It runs the gamut, just like any other religion.... It is sinful, but it's not something the person always has conscious control over, at least, that's the view I hear most from MO. ...

Gotta be hard. All this change and challenge in such a short time. Most of my Jewish friends are the more liberal, although they hang with Orthodox quite a bit, so the field is forced to meld. I heard one comment that it is understandable to be gay, but the only correct solution in that is to be celibate...

I don't get it, seems to me if you are celibate you are niether gay or heterosexual...

Tis really a shame the things we decide to fight over.

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by wil

I heard one comment that it is understandable to be gay, but the only correct solution in that is to be celibate...

That would sort of make sense. There's nothing in the Torah that says, at least in a literal interpretation, that *being* gay or lesbian is bad or that having thoughts of that sort are bad. It does say though that sex between men is bad and many of the major rabbis of antiquity and the middle ages interpreted that to also include female homosexuals.

Thus, technically, a celibate gay or a celibate lesbian isn't breaking any halakhic principles nor violating any aspect of Torah.

I find it silly that people are like, 'you can't have sex outside of marriage', but then turn around and say, 'you can't get married.' It's one thing if you can just come out with your opinion and say that homosexuality is bad, it's another if you're afraid of it so much that you're going to dodge the issue rather than giving a coherent and rational answer.

Moreover, we also know more about homosexuality now (such as that it's neurological rather psychological) than people did when the relevant texts were being developed, compiled and written down.

Originally Posted by wil

Tis really a shame the things we decide to fight over.

Indeed. People spend so much time worrying about whether or not homosexuality is acceptable and so little time worrying about the poor, the hungry and the impoverished--The people who have no food, shelter or medical care.

[dauer]

Kari said just about all of it, but just to present what's sometimes a key difference in the positions of Judaism and Christianity (on this and other issues), Judaism is generally with issues of what is wrong concerned with behavior while Christianity can sometimes see thoughts and feelings as sinful. So for Judaism it's pretty simple. There's nothing against being a homosexual in the Torah, just homosexual acts.

And Judaism being a religion of interpretation, there are attempts being made to understand these passages in a different light. There's an essay in a compilation called The Fifty-Eighth Century by R. Harold M. Schulweis that seems to deal with those approaches quite well, as well as providing some personal experiences for consideration.

Thus, technically, a celibate gay or a celibate lesbian isn't breaking any halakhic principles nor violating any aspect of Torah.

This is actually somewhat untrue. According to traditional halachah a celibate male is breaking the mitzvah to get down with the populating.

Dauer

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by dauer

This is actually somewhat untrue. According to traditional halachah a celibate male is breaking the mitzvah to get down with the populating.

Technicalities, technicalities...

At least its not any worse than failing to produce a Sefer Torah, and I doubt that's a mitzvah many male Jews get around to.

[dauer]

Technicalities, technicalities...

This is Judaism.

At least its not any worse than failing to produce a Sefer Torah, and I doubt that's a mitzvah many male Jews get around to.

Well, in order to produce a sefer torah, according to some people, I think you only need to go so far as contributing some money toward a fund that allows a sofer to write one, even enough for a single letter. (which is another very good example of halachah being flexible with something that just wasn't working.)

Dauer

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by dauer

This is Judaism.

Yup.

[bananabrain]

Well, in order to produce a sefer torah, according to some people, I think you only need to go so far as contributing some money toward a fund that allows a sofer to write one, even enough for a single letter. (which is another very good example of halachah being flexible with something that just wasn't working.)

precisely. so where i generally end up with this is that it's all very well to be anti-homosexuality, or think of it as whatever, a mental aberration or a sin or whatever, the sources allow for that, as well as allowing for a certain amount of flexibility on whether you're allowed to do whatever. however, what is *NOT* ok is to religiously discriminate against people on the grounds of their orientation. what i mean is that if you don't discriminate against people on the grounds of insufficient Shabbat observance or anything else, you have absolutely no grounds whatsoever for singling out homosexuality as uniquely deserving of censure. that's just obsessive and frankly Shabbat observance is more important. and if we don't punish one, we can't punish the other.

b'shalom

bananabrain