Jewish End Times prophecies..

[Amica]

Hello,
I would like to learn more about Judaism. I have read a lot about Christian understandings of the prophecies for the End Times, as well as from my own religion, but I have not read a lot about Jewish believes about it. I do know that Jews are still wating for the Messiah. I assume that the establishment of an independent state of Israel and the rebuilding of the Temple may be some of the prophecies, but are there others? I would greately appreciate your input. Thank you.

[I, Brian]

These threads may be of interest to answer at least some of your questions:

Moshiach
Maschiach and prophecy

Hope that helps.

[bananabrain]

yeah, those threads are a good starting point. however, with regard to the following question:

I assume that the establishment of an independent state of Israel and the rebuilding of the Temple may be some of the prophecies, but are there others?

the establishment of an independent state of israel is actually considered by some to be rather controversial. basically, it is an argument between those who say that the ingathering should be initiated only by the Moshiach and those who say that the Moshiach won't show up until we have had the ingathering. add to that the fact that the vast majority of people who established the state of israel were not religious and saw it more in terms of the self-determination of the nation-state and as a protective haven from the hatred of the world. many of the most religious were the most opposed to a jewish state that was not going to be based upon jewish law - these still range from the slightly unhappy to the rabidly fanatic, who are the jews you see at conferences in tehran and (until recently) cultivating arafat and col qaddafi (frankly, however, this fanatic group, called "neturei karta" are an insignificant fringe group who are regarded by the rest of the jewish world as somewhere between cranks and traitors, seeing as they essentially provide anti-zionist propaganda to some of the biggest enemies of israel).

the first chief rabbi of israel, rav kook, was a poet and mystic with an astoundingly inclusivist vision, seeing the establishment of a secular state as being the ugly duckling into which the swan of a Torah state would eventually grow. i believe it was him that first came up with the idea that the state was "reishit smihat geulateinu" - the beginning of the joy of our redemption.

unfortunately, it was a bowdlerised and narrowed version of this vision, propagated by his far less talented son, that provided the foundation for the extreme religious nationalism associated with the fanatics amongst the west bank and gaza strip settlers. basically, these guys see it as their job to turn israel into something not a million miles away from the sort of state the taleban or hizbollah would set up if they could - in contrast to the non-zionist religious parties, who would prefer something a bit more like iran or saudi arabia. this issue also affects the question of the third Temple - like the state, some feel the Moshiach will build it, some feel that the Moshiach won't come till it's built. the most extreme, like the so-called "temple mount faithful", would, i believe, quite happily demolish the dome of the rock and the al-aqsa mosque if they thought they could get away with it, which would of course be catastrophic.

personally, i find it hard to believe the Moshiach is going to show up unless the state of the jews behaves in a correct, fair and equitable manner, which means that they can't be lording it over the palestinians and treating them like crap. i also find it hard to believe that a lack of respect for their quality of life and human dignity is what was meant in the israeli declaration of independence when they swore to be "a light unto the nations". likewise, a corrupt political class and a venal and selfish religious establishment are not the sort of things that are going to impress the Moshiach when he does turn up. obviously they are surrounded by enemies and cannot even get on a bus or go for a coffee without risking their lives, but that's not an indefinite excuse for jews not behaving as jews should do and not living up to our responsibilities. on the whole the messianic movement has done the israeli state and the jewish people very few favours - but they have got one thing right: namely, that jews should be able to live unmolested where they want, even hebron or shechem (nablus). what they have not begun to appreciate (and neither have the arab world) is that the flip side of that is that eventually, arabs and muslims should be able to live in tel aviv and west jerusalem just as unmolested. and it is hard to see how this necessitates a two-state solution. ironically, col. qaddafi's speech about one nation of "israstine" might actually be the only thing that enables jews to live in biblical "eretz yisrael" and palestinians to live as citizens of their own state with full rights and participation.

sorry if this got a bit political - but you did ask about the political realities. the idea that *these* are the "end times" is responsible for much death, no peace and no compromise. this must change.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[benOddo]

The Prophecies point to Israels 69 week, which we are soon to enter into.

God's Plan, in a Week of Seven Thousand Years, where in the middle of the Week, the Law was given. After the first 3500 years.

The last Half of God's Plan and the End Times, as reflected in the Law, where 70 periods of 50 years, being the Jubilee's that God counted, and the Land observed. Heaven and Earth are witness too. Are 3500 years, the 69th Week being 3,450 years from the Command to build, to enter, to obey, to observe, to remember, to Keep His Appointed Times.
From the first Month, He appointed, none other. From one Exile to the Other, the appointed times of God.

Just as the Anointed One of God, came at the time appointed, The same Lamb of God, will return at the appointed time.

Every Religion, every man will see Him, every knee will bow, before the Anointed One of God, His Son, Our King, Our Salvation. From the Time God Appointed, from before even the Creation of the World.

Man has marked the years, the year 5766 is close to the appointed times, the end times, the Fulfillment of the Law, and Prophets.

What then is the 8th day?

[bananabrain]

look, benoddo, if you're trying to say that jesus was and is the jewish messiah, then this is both inaccurate and unwelcome. we are not even permitted to calculate the date of his arrival. take your apocalyptic gobbledegook elsewhere.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[benOddo]

Ha, ha, Ha-Rav,
Spoken like a true stiffneck.

Sorry if I got a little to prophetic, but you were talking about political realities, the statehood of Israel was and is a prophetic reality.

Who are you to change the appointed times of God?

Let a lone see them coming, and 'Yes', even realize you could very well be in the end times, that Ha-Shem appointed.

The wise and decerning, will understand what was said by the Prophets, but you Ha-Rav, go your way for now, for it is for a little while yet, before you see with your eyes, and hear with your ears. But the fact remains, the 'Fig Tree' is a State, since 1947-'48.

Peace

[I, Brian]

Hi benOddo - please note that we have a Christianity board for Christians to evangelise - it's not really welcome on the Judaism board, thanks.

[benOddo]

I, Brian,

Jesus Christ, is a Son of David, the Anointed of God, His Son.

There are Jews for Jesus, too ! Like Adam we are sons of God also !

I'm, ben Oddo

[bananabrain]

some people just don't know the meaning of "sod off", do they?

as i have said *numerous* times before, jews do not accept jesus as the messiah. so-called "messianic jews" or "jews for jesus" are an organisation dedicated at converting jews to christianity. they are well funded by evangelical christian organisations and i am not interested in discussing this dishonest, underhand and divisive group. if you want to see some relevant discussions, take a look here:

If not Jesus, then who?
Moshiach
Question on Isaiah 28 and 61.

i am not attempting to change the "appointed times" of G!D, whatever they may be. but neither do i assume i know what they are, nor am i so arrogant as to believe that i can interpret prophetic texts as accurately as you seem to think you can. let's see what moshiach says when he shows up. i'm betting that people like you are going to be thoroughly embarrassed at your presumption and self-importance. leave us alone.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[pohaikawahine]

"The last Half of God's Plan and the End Times, as reflected in the Law, where 70 periods of 50 years, being the Jubilee's that God counted, and the Land observed. Heaven and Earth are witness too. "

One could also look at the 7 weeks and 50 days that are counted from Passover as a reflection of the "end of times" as we know them now, and a reconnection of heaven and earth to take us to the "promised land" .... this will coincide with the date of June 1 this year .... which is Shavuot .... the day the Jewish people received the Torah on Mt. Sinai .... probably the most important day in all of Jewish history and the pinnacle of success in understanding the essence of the Torah and walking that ancient path .... it would if all were perfect be the return of the mosiach, not the return of Jesus .... on that night one would not shown any outward manifestation of belief such as the lighting of candles, but would go inward in deep study of the Torah .... dairy products can be eaten because we could conceivable enter the land of "milk and honey" if we get it right .... the 50 year Jubilee is associated with "freedom" of the Jewish slave that decides to stay with his master but must be set free in 50 years .... freedom and sovereignty is what is returned to us when we once again accept and take responsibility for the Torah .... June 1, in my mind, is a critical date for reflection of the inner meaning of the Torah and one must take the steps necessary to go to that place of freedom, the promised land .... but I also fear that the day will pass and the cycle will continue for a little longer .... but conceivable the mosiach could return on that very date if we deemed it to be .... just some passing thoughts to share ....the "end times" are to be welcomed because in my view we will enter into better times as we remember who we really are and begin to see with our souls .... the meeting of heaven and earth is the reconnection of the ancient system .... he hawai'i au, poh