Jewish belifes

[path_of_one]

Thank you so much, Dauer!

[dauer]

Hi Zaakir.

what do the jews beleive the messiah will be because i read on this thread that you dont beleive you have to be saved by anyone,

The traditional belief is that the moshiach will be a descendant of David who will reinstitute the Davidic monarchy, bring back the Sanhedrin, rebuild the Temple, bring world peace, and a few other things, but not be supernatural in any way, more of an ideal leader, even the paradigm for what a leader should be, than anything else. Other people hold the view that there will be no single messiah, but only a messianic age. Still others suspend belief in either of these, holding a diferent belief about it, or rejecting messianism entirely. In Judaism there is both active messianism (our actions can help bring the messiah) and passive messianism (the messiah will come when the messiah will come and we should not worry about it, because ultimately it's in God's hands.) The active type is found much more in mysticism than anywhere else. Imo Christianity got a lot of its non-Judaic theology in Rome. If you look at another messiah claimant of the era, who was much more widely accepted and more noticed by historians of that time, Bar Kokhba, you see that he was a military leader, and not somebody offering any type of salvation from sin.

also..why cant anyone just convert to judaism.i read something about only certain people as theyre Gods chosen ones...what about all non jews,do we not get a chance in your view?

I don't know where you read it, but it's entirely false. Anyone can convert and become a Jew. We just don't evangelize. We don't try to convert people to Judaism or spread its message. However there really isn't a need for everyone to become Jewish anyway, as according to Judaism the righeous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come, not just righteous Jews, and a gentile who is can be more righteous than the kohein gadol, the high priest, because God's less concerned with what you were born as and more concerned with how you live your life. Traditionally the difference between a Jew's relationship to God and a gentile's relationship to God, from the perspective of Judaism, is simply that Jews have more responsibilities, 613 mitzvot as opposed to 7.

The issue with Isaiah 7 isn't so much the word Emmanuel, as far as the variation in reading, as it is with the word "almah" which the septuagint translates into a word that means virgin, while in Hebrew the word would more likely mean young woman, not virgin. I have always understood this to refer to someone he knew personally.

Hope that helps.

Dauer

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by dauer

Traditionally the difference between a Jew's relationship to God and a gentile's relationship to God, from the perspective of Judaism, is simply that Jews have more responsibilities, 613 mitzvot as opposed to 7.

Hi, Dauer-

I was reading some of the resources today and came across a website that indicated that the 7 are actually detailed as 66? And then I can't really understand where the 66 come from?

JAHG-USA Official Web Site

I'm a little confused by a few things, especially issues with idolatry. I'm guessing that in Judaism there are diverse ways of thinking about Gentiles that are trying to be righteous and live a life worshipping God. What was of concern to me is that this website I found was quite hostile toward Christianity, calling it a wicked and idolatrous religion.

But Christianity isn't monolithic either, and not all Christians worship the man Jesus as God. We have pretty diverse views about who Jesus was and how he relates to God, and how he is a savior.

I guess I was wondering if the seven laws are generally understood by Jews to be interpreted by people through study and prayer individually, or if most Jews do believe there is a detailed list that prohibits all other religious holidays and the like and would condemn all Christians for celebrating Christmas or Easter, for example, no matter how they themselves understood what they were doing.

I suppose I'm just wondering the majority view on these types of things within Judaism. So much is interpreted by one's historical and cultural context. What was modest 200 years ago may be immodest today, and vice versa (we can show our ankles now, but wearing a corset is immodest). And what about all the many Pagan peoples of the world who for most of human history had multiple gods and goddesses and only vague concepts of an ultimate Creator (if that). Many presumably still tried to live moral, good lives and worship god(s) in the only ways they knew how.

I'm kind of curious if the website I ran across are just sort of extremist (I can find dozens of similar Christian ones at the drop of a hat) or if there are indeed a more complex and detailed list of commandments than the seven Noahide laws.

[dauer]

path,

Judaism isn't monolithic, and a lot of it is interpretation. This is the case for saying the 7 are actually 66. I think it's based on Rambam's (maimonides) understanding of them. We could also say that there is room for other types of communication, contact, revelation, deals and whathaveyou with other people, that are meant for them, and that would still be a pretty mainstream idea. The website you found is from Chabad. They're a group that essentially missionizes to non-Chabad Jews who aren't fully observant to become more observant, and otherwise want to spread the gospel of hasidus, as understood by R. Schneur Zalman of Liadi and expanded by his descendants. More recently they've taken up an agenda with non-Jews by way of the Noahide laws. What they say on those issues shouldn't ever be regarded as "what Jews believe." They are very much in the minority on those matters. I linked you to their website simply because of the commentary they have available there.

As far as how Christianity is viewed by Judaism, re:idolatry, there was a recent thread that discussed this at length:

Christian Idolaters?

Short answer being, no, Judaism does not view Christianity as idolatrous for Christians. Idolatry in hebrew is avodah zarah, strange/foreign worship/service and is a little more expansive than what the word idolatry might suggest, so for a Jew it would be regarded as avodah zara to attribute a unique Divinity to a particular individual. I'm merely pointing to that Christian view because, on the complete other end, if you just think Jesus was a good role model and said some good things worth living by, a Jew could even probably hold that view without it being an issue.

I guess I was wondering if the seven laws are generally understood by Jews to be interpreted by people through study and prayer individually, or if most Jews do believe there is a detailed list that prohibits all other religious holidays and the like and would condemn all Christians for celebrating Christmas or Easter, for example, no matter how they themselves understood what they were doing.

Well, firstly according to Judaism God's justice is always tempered by His mercy. So let's just say hypothetically that Christianity was some sort of abomination or something (which I would not for a moment truly suggest), that doesn't automatically condemn anyone to anything. And just as a Jew could live, with 613 mitzvot, and break some, so too could a gentile. There really isn't a difference there. So no, most Jews don't believe there's a big list that prohibits all those sorts of holidays for gentiles. And in fact many Jews are unaware of the noahide laws or simply don't worry much about them at all.

I'm kind of curious if the website I ran across are just sort of extremist

Indeed. Some things chabad-lubavitch does are quite helpful, but some of their views are also very backwards. They don't cloister themselves like a number of other hasidic groups, but it would seem like the reason for this is because they are so driven to spread their message.

Dauer

[path_of_one]

Thank you very much, Dauer. It was the response I expected, but just wanted to be sure. I skimmed over a lot of the details and they seemed a little... extreme to me. For example, they considered castrating an animal to be a huge offense to nature. But I can't really imagine my male Rottie living a happy (and safe) life if we hadn't neutered him. A lot of the extremes were in the details.

I really appreciate the overall view of other nations, though- a general consensus that people should strive to be good and worship the One God, but leaving people the freedom to remain culturally themselves. I appreciate the freedom of thought and diversity in Judaism and find the emphasis on this life and our connection to God in the here and now familiar and dear to me. Most of the time, I feel led to not "answer" spiritual questions, but rather accept the questions and the mystery, so it's refreshing to read about a religion that accepts the questions and emphasizes a right relationship with God more than theological issues.

As for my views of Jesus- I suppose I'm a bit outside the regular views of Christians (in lots of issues- not just Jesus, which is why some brand me a heretical Christian) but outside the pale of what would be acceptable for Jews, too, from what I gather.

It is a relief to better understand the Jewish concept of idolatry as it relates to Gentiles and to find that a mainstream Jewish opinion would be that as a Gentile, it is acceptable to practice my faith so long as I am focused on worshipping the One God.

[Correction]

Jewish beliefs about the afterlife vary quite a bit, are not written in stone. So there are a few possibilities for what might happen to someone after they died if they were not ready to go to gan eden, to heaven. They might be reincarnated and live another lifetime, they might go to a place called gehenna, which is a temporary place (no stay longer than 12 months), and their being there would prepare them to go to gan eden. This might happen by, for instance, them being confronted with all of the wrongs they had done in their lifetime in a way that would temper them so that they would be ready for gan eden. If someone was unable to be transformed in gehenna, then their soul would be extinguished. Odds are, according to this line of thinking, that the individual would not be extinguished, would eventually end up in Gan Eden. Of course, as I said before, these ideas are not written in stone. But these are some of the possibilities that show up in Jewish afterlife theology.

Dauer[/quote]

Dear Dauer,

Lets just say, you are the father of all man kind in this world(you're God). Now as a father you see what is right and wrong, now when they do right you award them, but when they do wrong don't you punish them?. I'm not really sure about hell myself, but maybe its a way of just punishing our mistakes in life. We as human love our sons and daughter very much, but when the sons and daughters do something wrong, there will be accountabilites.
By law if we steal, we go to jail. There's a punishment for every things we do wrong in life.
So what I'm trying to say is, if we do wrong unto God don't we get punish somehow? Whats the point of keeping a log book about the mistake I make if I'm not gonna pay for it?
If I offended anyone, I apoligize.
Thank you.

[dauer]

Corr,

Now as a father you see what is right and wrong, now when they do right you award them, but when they do wrong don't you punish them?.

In Judaism we believe that God is just, but we also believe that God is merciful. What kind of father would spank his child for eternity? Also, what is the purpose of punishment? Is it really a way to "get back" at someone, is it about meting out punishment blow for blow, or in its truest form is it really a learning experience that teaches the child they have wronged, to feel bad about it, and to commit never to do it again? That is why you see concepts like reincarnation, where one is sent for example into the body of a particular animal related to things that one has done in life, or gehenna, where one must go through certain experiences, perhaps experiencing the pain one has caused other people in life, in order to to temper oneself so that one might be ready for gan eden. But what kind of God would damn someone to eternal suffering? I just can't equate such a thing with any benevolent concept of God.

Dauer

[Zaakir]

dauer, thanks for that,answered all of my questions,i didnt realise how similar actually, that islam and judaism are!

[Correction]

In Judaism we believe that God is just, but we also believe that God is merciful. What kind of father would spank his child for eternity? Also, what is the purpose of punishment? Is it really a way to "get back" at someone, is it about meting out punishment blow for blow, or in its truest form is it really a learning experience that teaches the child they have wronged, to feel bad about it, and to commit never to do it again? That is why you see concepts like reincarnation, where one is sent for example into the body of a particular animal related to things that one has done in life, or gehenna, where one must go through certain experiences, perhaps experiencing the pain one has caused other people in life, in order to to temper oneself so that one might be ready for gan eden. But what kind of God would damn someone to eternal suffering? I just can't equate such a thing with any benevolent concept of God.

Dauer[/quote]

Dauer,

I always feel the way you have explain that there shouldn't be or isn't a hell. I ask this question to myself also, that if God love his people so much why torment them at the end? I wanna feel safe that even though I make mistake, I will not burn in hell for the rest of my eternal life. Thanks for the quick answer.

Cor.