Jewish beliefs not corrupted

[bananabrain]

i would just like to say that the idea that i often see repeated on this board that we jews possess a "corrupt" verion of the Torah is *profoundly* offensive to me and to all jews. the often quoted verse from jeremiah does *not* refer to the Torah as a whole, but to the behaviour of the royal court in the first Temple period when the people behaved wickedly and worshipped idols. and if the text is corrupt, why couldn't that verse of "evidence" itself have been corrupted?

this doctrine represents an attack on our identity which cannot be tolerated. the suggestion is that we are in error and that our errors can only be rectified by embracing the "final revelation" and the "truth". you will no doubt be aware that many cultures, not least christianity and islam, have our conversion a priority over the last few millennia, but we're still here, just as we were thousands of years ago, the only surviving culture of the ancient world. you can say what you want about us, but it doesn't make it true.

i appreciate that this is the islam board, but does that mean i can discuss matters that are offensive to muslims on the judaism board? suppose i say "the Qur'an makes false claims about the authenticity of the Torah"? is that OK? i suspect not. it is not for muslims, or christians, or anyone else to tell jews that we are mistaken or not. that is between us and G!D.

let me remind you that the truth and authenticity of the Qur'an, islam and its prophet are all axiomatic. that is to say: they are *your* opinion.

every single "proof" brought, here and elsewhere, that these things are "true", "correct", "accurate" are all based on the *opinion* of muslims, supported by evidence based on the authority of the Qur'an - so actually, you have to believe that the Qur'an is the Truth and the Word of G!D before you can take it as an authority. muslims do not admit the authority of external scrutiny to judge the Qur'an - why should we accept the authority of the Qur'an and muslims to judge the Torah?

if you are so keen on your superiority and so keen to sneer at our alleged falsehood, let's submit the Qur'an to the analysis of the so-called "objective" and "impartial" bible critics and scholars. let's see what they come up with. or is that simply not permitted? if so, why should we ourselves permit it? judaism has weathered this storm and has survived it. the Torah remains intact despite the questions and perhaps the stronger for it. i see very little evidence that muslims are prepared to permit such discussion of their holy text - if people made in public about the Qur'an similar statements to those made about the Torah, there would surely be demonstrations, riots and violence.

this doctrine is underpinned by nothing but "because we say so" writ large. you are of course at liberty to believe what you wish - there is, as it says, "no compulsion in religion" - but if you expect islam to coexist with the rest of the planet, the triumphalism will have to go.

was-salaam

bananabrain

[Vajradhara]

here, here.

well put, b.

metta,

~v

[wil]

Namaste bb,

I'd like to say I am a christian, but find the old testament (whether it is exactly your Torah or not) extremely interesting, valuable and enlightening. I so enjoy the parsha's, counting the omer, reflections during the holydays, absolutely incredible and complete.

I know 'we' shuffled your books to our advantage, and most likely moved a few words around as well. But my exposure to Judaism and other religions is so much part of my spiritual foundation and understanding.

Not to say I know even a small percentage of what it is all about, I've gotta say how much I enjoy the passages and interpretations I read not only hear, but over at chabad and other sites as well.

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

Jewish beliefs not corrupted

Originally Posted by bananabrain

In the thread started by you titled "Jewish beliefs not corrupted" in post #1 the subject has been mentioned "what is islams belef on the crucifiction".I don’t know how this mistake has happened, but I intend to reflect on the later subject; and that might also in a way reflect on the first, and instead of being offended a positive response in the form of a cleansing effort gets started. I don’t find any harm if a continuous effort is made by all the Revealed Religions to cleanse their beliefs and straighten them according to the Word of God revealed to the prophets. Humans are always prone to err, why not amend the errors; there should be no ego involved in this.
One should not forget that even in the times of Moses, when for a short time he went to the sacred Mountain to meet God, his followers indulged in idolatry, while Moses had shunned idolatry in clear and unequivocal terms, what to speak of other beliefs. Now about four thousands years after that incident, what could have happened is anybody’s guess. So, there should not be any ill will for reformation. The Muslims, the Christians, the Jews, the Hindus, the Buddhist, the Zoroastrians etc, etc, all should cleanse their beliefs and straighten them and make them according to the Revealed Words of God, only then they are truthful Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians etc, etc, if they bow to the will of God.
I may mention here that I am an Ahmadi, a faith in Islam; we are being persecuted in many countries due to our strong belief in peaceful dialogue, and our not believing
in forceful means in the matter of religion.
Now about crucifixion, God says in Quran Chapter 4 Al-Nisa':
“[4:154]The people of the Book ask thee to bring down upon them a Book from heaven. They asked Moses a greater thing than this. They said, 'Show us Allah openly.' Thereupon a destructive punishment overtook them because of their transgression. Then they took the calf for worship after clear Signs had come to them, but We pardoned even that. And We gave Moses a manifest authority[4:155]And We raised high above them the Mount while making a covenant with them, and We said to them, 'Enter the gate submissively,' and We said to them, 'Transgress not in the matter of the Sabbath.' And We took from them a firm covenant. [4:156]So, for their breaking the covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to slay the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: 'Our hearts are wrapped up in covers,' - nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little -[4:157]And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny;[4:158]And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it. 4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.”
Thanks

[bananabrain]

as i said before - jews are not obliged to "cleanse their beliefs" because muslims say so. plenty of our own sources talk about the sins of the people - in other words, the Qur'anic verses you quote are not saying anything we haven't said about ourselves. HOWEVER - this is NOT evidence of the so-called "corruption" of our religion.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[wil]

I think it incredibly awesome how G-d works. If one decides to be Jewish, the scriptures are complete and complete ways to acces G-d and peace within...and that includes the orthodox and reformed...

If one decides to be Hindu, there are wonderful scriptures that help one through life, develop an understanding and comfort level with spirit, and console one in trying times.

If one decides to be Muslim...

If one decides....

If one...

If....

I...

I am...

whatta blessing.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Isn't it pretty much just a matter of belief all the way around? I've tried to figure out where the line between historicity and mythology falls in the Bible, but it's pretty murky--by design I think. I've tried to find works of unbiased scholorship, and that's really hard. The best I can figure is that everything on the back side of the Babylonian exile is pretty much fictional. Nobody knows who Jesus actually was if he was a real dude, and whoever wrote the Koran pretty much made it all up based on older myths.

Now chew my head off!

Chris

[flowperson]

Hi China Cat:

Not a very appetizing thought you left us with. No, I happen to agree with you that the most effective writings are those which lay on the boundary of fact and myth, simply because they leave more room for the imagination... and all of our realities are concocted from human imagination.

Having been in a position to experience some of this, I can tell you that ideas and writings can be communicated to the writer/composer from the beyond. IMHO this is how G-d operates to advance civilizations in meaningful ways, but I don't believe that it happens as often these days. If it is/does it is being stifled and covered up more effectively by those who don't want "new" information and ideas to destabilize the status quo.

Keep in mind that Jesus was probably the ultimate in a revolutionary force/person/set-of-ideas. That's why he was killed in the stories. True figuratively, but probably not factually, for ideas for change are effectively killed each day.

No, I believe that much that is in the Bible, Q'uran, the Vedantas, etc. are "dictated" from the beyond. It can't be proven but must be experienced and believed. Look what happened to Salman Rushdie when he transgresssed into this area and suggested that some of what Muhammed, pbuh, might have been corrupted by humans.

About anyone who has seriously pursued the creative arts will tell you that this is true. IMO about the only writer that successfully operates that way these days is Thomas Pynchon. Be sure to read Gravity's Rainbow and any of his other books that you can stretch your mind around. Wonderful stuff !

flow....

[inhumility]

For those who would be interested in making a comarison whether the beliefs and/or Scriptures of a particular religion are corrupted or not, I give hereunder the measures adopted by Muhammad for Quran. Other religions may give their account of measures adopted for securing and preserving their Scriptures.
Quran’s system of preservation
How the Written Islamic Tradition and Verbal Tradition have been secured and preserved (while leaving for Jews and Christians to explain about their scriptures themselves) Muhammad under support from God took following measures:-

1. The Verbal Revelation as and when it received was instantly committed to writing with the result that there are no two Quran in the world, old or new) spread over a span of fifteen hundred years) that should differ with one another as for as Arabic text is concerned, that is always written side by side usually along with the translation in other languages.
2. Along with the written text , an elaborate system of memorizing the text of Quran by heart was also instantly introduced and implemented , so that if under any calamity ( which did happen to Jewish and Christians’ scriptures) if all , the written copies are destroyed; there are several, thousand people even now who have memorized Quran by heart, word for word , from their memory the written text could be prepared immediately as accurate as the one before
3. The second source of guidance was the Actions (Sunnah) which under instruction from God, the Most Enlightened (Khatam -un-Nabiyyeen) himself performed (necessary rituals) and set his followers on it and insured they performed it before him and also their followers confirmed that they have understood it. These Sunnah ( sacred rituals ) or Actions, every believer was to perform many time in his life, some five times a day, so every body followed it from him from generation to generation, needed no writing, though also committed to writing subsequently.
4. Apart from Quran, whatever the Most Enlightened Muhammad spoke, that was also lately, after two/three centuries recorded in writing under a specific system found no where else in any religion. This was third source of guidance.
5. The observation shows, it is possible, that the Word of God, as also the Action of the prophet/enlightened one are set and secure, the spoken word is also there in some oblique form, yet the real meaning of it are lost or lifted to skies or become obsolete due to the hardened clergy who cling to the apparent words and would not understand the Metaphoric part of or the implied meaning. So, the Enlightened One foretold that God will raise among the believers, at the end of every century, persons who will refresh/renew the teachings and would interpret the true and truthful meaning according to the needs of the time.

These are in short the measures adopted by the Most Enlightened Muhammad and above all there is a clear assurance from God that We have revealed it (Quran) on your heart and We will ensure it is preserved securely. As far as the scriptures of Judaism or Christians are concerned, it would be proper that the Jews or Christians may reflect on them.
My little knowledge of these great Religions, tells me that their system of preservation was not so strong; at least two times when all the scriptures were burnt by their enemies, so naturally there were problems, one can understand.
The Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians Scriptures and scriptures of other Revealed Religions, their followers would explain what measures were adopted and to what extent the same were successful in preserving their Word of God. Followers of all Revealed Religions are cordially encouraged to reflect on the issue for benefit of everybody for comparison sake. Love for all, hatred for none.
Thanks

[I, Brian]

*sigh* - extolling the Quran has nothing to do with claims of corruption in the Jewish scriptures.

Also, the book burning under Uthman is the reason for the agreement between versions of the Quran - and that certainly is not equivalent in argument to being a perfect representation of the original. All it argues is that Uthman's version is the one that was followed, not that it was the original.

[wil]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Isn't it pretty much just a matter of belief all the way around?

Yes and who are we to say that someone elses belief is wrong

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I've tried to figure out where the line between historicity and mythology falls in the Bible, but it's pretty murky--by design I think. I've tried to find works of unbiased scholorship, and that's really hard.

Don't really think there is unbiased scholarship...not in the second or third book anyway. But I maintain, what is the difference, the value is in the story and what you get out of it.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

The best I can figure is that everything on the back side of the Babylonian exile is pretty much fictional. Nobody knows who Jesus actually was if he was a real dude, and whoever wrote the Koran pretty much made it all up based on older myths.

Now chew my head off!

all of the texts stood on the shoulders of what came previously, much as we do in science, music, art, then someone gets a divine inspiration and moves in a different direction but they typically use some of the old media as a base and springboard. Fictional or fact, Historical or jaded history...to me it all has extreme value...simply look at the passion of the followers...of any sect, any religion. True it is a double edged sword...some take the texts and skew them to facilitate their predjudices...but others take their beliefs and do great works for their people, their community and the world at large.

Chris[/quote]